Homophobic lecturer

[CurtCB]

My point is where do you draw the line between points of view that are acceptable and points of view that are not? If you draw the line, as you suggest, at where the law currently stands then frankly we, risk a society, will have a society where the law never progresses.

I am sorry but I feel very strongly about freedom of speech and freedom of thought. If academics cannot think freely, and express those thoughts, then who can. If a Professor of Law cannot argue that a law is wrong, even if many other countries have similar laws, then frankly such laws will never change. The freedom of speech, of course, works both ways and students are free (even encouraged) to give their Professors a good academic and philosophical heckling (but not plain verbal abuse). Anyone who holds such views as Professor Thio and accepts a position at New York University should expect to be strongly heckled and be prepared to defend their position.



I would suggest that any student who wishes to avoid an atmosphere where they might hear such things should resign their US Citizenship and emigrate to somewhere where freedom of speech is not protected.

That woman is a pig.
You can't yell fire in a crowded theater for a reason.
Her hate goes beyond freedom of speech.
I take great offense at your last statement.
Our country means a lot more then "love it or leave it"
Try to imagine some 18 year old who is struggling with his or her sexuality being exposed to her vile. No, she should go back to hell.
Being homophobic is not just a different view. IT'S HATE! Gay people in our country are murdered everyday because of other people's "point of view".
pure and simple.
I have an idea for you.
Go to a country where their "point of view" means you can be put to death for being gay and tell gay people who are awaiting hanging to accept other people's "point of view".
If Being gay is right or wrong is not up for debate. It's who we are. period.
I am sick and tired of people using freedom of speech to excuse hate and stupidity.
So the next time someone calls you a fag and hopes you burn in hell, be sure to tell them thanks for their point of view!!!

[fredv3b]

My apologies for any offence caused.

You can't yell fire in a crowded theater for a reason.

People die and get maimed in stampedes, I am not sure what connection that has to what she has said other than freedom of speech is not absolute, which I have never claimed.

Her hate goes beyond freedom of speech.

I am sorry I have not heard reports of her statements being beyond freedom of speech.

Try to imagine some 18 year old who is struggling with his or her sexuality being exposed to her vile. No, she should go back to hell.
Being homophobic is not just a different view. IT'S HATE! Gay people in our country are murdered everyday because of other people's "point of view".
pure and simple.

Murder is a crime, as is advocating or encouraging murder.

I have an idea for you. Go to a country where their "point of view" means you can be put to death for being gay and tell gay people who are awaiting hanging to accept other people's "point of view".

I would tell them no such thing! I would tell them that the same right that allows homophobia to be expressed in word (but not in deed) also allows them and their supporters to argue that society's views and practices are barbaric and primitive and should be changed. I would also tell them that the acceptance of gays in much of the West can, I think in part, be traced back to the freedom of people to argue in favour of what was once considered utter moral depravity.

If Being gay is right or wrong is not up for debate. It's who we are. period.

I agree. I am sure Prof. Theo will find she is wasting her breath and the credulity of her audience.

I am sick and tired of people using freedom of speech to excuse hate and stupidity.

I am not excusing hate or stupidity, but that people have a right to express it, but not, obviously, as far as incitement to violence.

So the next time someone calls you a fag and hopes you burn in hell, be sure to tell them thanks for their point of view!!!

No, but I will avail myself of my right to freedom of speech, and return their point of view with my own, in angry reply.

The freedom of speech to say nice things that people agree with is no freedom at all. You think I like how people use their right to freedom of speech? But, frankly, how can I deny people the freedom of speech that lead to my freedom today?

[CurtCB]

Whatever Fred, but people who strive to oppress other people have no rights in my view.
I am half German. I grew up hearing all about what happened in Germany during the 1930s.
The NAZIS were a tiny minority but because the rest of German society said " OH they are harmless it's just their point of veiw" and they were able to gain power and damn near destroyed your country.
What is the difference between us and Jews? Region as opposed to sexuality?
So you can sit safe on the sidelines all you want, because that pig doesn't effect you in the UK and oh what she is saying is not so degrading she is just speaking her mind.
But every time she opens her mouth she equals you to something that is wrong.
You are wrong? Abnormal? Queer?
She can have what ever opinion she wants, but not as an educator.

[CurtCB]

Westboro Baptist Church Home Page here Fred take a good long look at what that pig leads to. The next time someone's child is murdered because of people like her, send some flowers.

[CurtCB]

One more thing fred do some binging (Googling) on the following topic. "intellectual anti semitism in europe during the 20 century". then try to find some parallels. Sometimes massacres can start with teachers.

[marshlander]

Really enjoying this passionate exchange of views, but I'm not entirely convinced we are all that far apart.

Thio Li-Ann's views and the way she expresses them are entirely unacceptable, but nothing will change if we simply shut these people down. Every vile word they utter must be countered with reasoned argument. I am not talking about "being reasonable" and am definitely not advocating the appeasement that led to Hitler's support reaching critical mass.

If people in an institution that exists to train its students how to construct an effective argument pass up the opportunity for a real life experience it seems like an opportunity lost. I would suggest replacing her as a debating opponent with a member of the Westboro Baptist Church community, but I doubt that a single one of their members has the intellectual ability to construct anything approaching an appropriately coherent argument.

I would not suggest giving her a popular platform from which to spout her hate, because there are too many sheep among us plebs who are content to let someone else do our thinking, but a democracy, secure in its own values, should have nothing to fear from having to meet a challenge.

There is every likelihood that my views about life will upset someone, but we should not fear ideas. I shan't see it in my lifetime, but maybe one day there'll be a place where there'll be an aspiration for all citizens to be equipped with the intellectual armoury to dissect, analyse and counter opposing points of view. In the meantime, I suppose we'll continue to shout and scream until we are sick and hold our breaths till we all turn blue and no doubt I shall continue to go out on the streets to make my disagreements known to those who tell me that being gay is wrong.

[CurtCB]

Try to look at it from another perspective. There are certain degrading terms that were commonly used in the south of the US to describe African Americans. Along with that point of view came Crow Laws, segregation, lynchings and other horrible acts against blacks that were acceptable. Racism was taught in school and generations of white American thought it was totally ok to treat black as sub-human. That all started with an opinion.
African American stood up in force in the 1960s and gained their rights. Now the point of view has changed. Our Country has changed to the point where we have an African American president.
Sure there are Americans who still think Blacks are animals, but they keep their mouths shut in public and they wouldn't dare say it in front of Black people.
Every one is entitled to their point of view, but not if it does harm to other people.
She spreads ignorance and hate under the guise of being a " professional "
She a teacher someone who molds young minds, not some loon on a soapbox.
As far as I am concerned let her crawl back underneath whatever rock she came from and teach there, but not in one of the US's most liberal University.
If one person commits suicide due to her hate, then we all have blood on our hands for respecting her right to be a foolish hateful pig.

[fredv3b]

Marshy, glad your enjoying our debate. Quite a few points to reply to.

So you can sit safe on the sidelines all you want, because that pig doesn't effect you in the UK and oh what she is saying is not so degrading she is just speaking her mind.
But every time she opens her mouth she equals you to something that is wrong.
You are wrong? Abnormal? Queer?
She can have what ever opinion she wants, but not as an educator.

I am not exactly sitting on the sidelines I am making a full throated for freedom of speech. However you are right that this particular case does not effect me however I hope I would have the same courage of my convictions if she had been appointed to a British University.

Westboro Baptist Church Home Page here Fred take a good long look at what that pig leads to. The next time someone's child is murdered because of people like her, send some flowers.

I am sorry I do not see how what she has said (or at least the reports that I have read) lead to anti-gay murder except if twisted and taken to extreme. Frankly, almost any statement can be twisted and taken to an extreme totally different from the sentiments of the author. For example, you statement:-

people who strive to oppress other people have no rights in my view.

Could be taken to mean that you think it would be perfectly OK to simply murder that woman.

I agree that massacres can start with teachers. Intellectual anti-Semitism did offer support to the early Nazis. However, on the other hand, the Nazis also silenced their critics, intellectual and otherwise, so I don't think it is clear how the course of history would have flowed had there been more or less restriction in academic thought or freedom. More over I do not think that we should forget that the Nazi party rose to power on the back of resentment of the Treaty of Versailles, promises to reduce unemployment, resurgent national pride, etc.

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. - John Stuart Mill

[CurtCB]

I have given you plenty of examples of why I disagree with you.
On this subject we are not going to agree.
Let her go back to Malaysia and teach her hate there.
We have our share of homophobes. We don't need to starting importing them from other countries.
To be quite frank I hope New Yorkers make her everyday in this country a living hell till she begs to leave.

[fredv3b]

On this subject we are not going to agree.

No, I never thought we would. I was hoping to, maybe, persuade a reader.

Let her go back to Malaysia and teach her hate there.

Let us also hope that back in Singapore the censors don't stop people criticism her views and exposing her as the bigot that she is.