God vs. Gay

[libertylove4]

[COLOR="Black"]Hello boys and welcome to another rousing edition of 'An Open Question'!

Brought to you by LibertyLove4 and the support of fabulous viewers like you [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Indigo"]This week's theme song is.......'The Reckoning' by Levi Kreis



On to today's question.....[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]Okay so short and sweet I want to know what are your perceptions of religion, and how do you think that religion has contributed to the years of oppression faced by the LGBT community around the world. The second part is how can you see religion and homosexuality coming together and working together in a meaningful fashion.

I recently read a statistic that said that 75% of all those who identified as LGBT also believed in God, how can this be reconciled with the bible's condemnation of homosexuality as expressed in Leviticus and by St. Paul?

Your thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated. During my last open question I promised you all a religion debate so here it is....on your mark....get set.......argue!

Thank you all for reading and please leave your thoughts below and I will see you next time for another edition of 'An Open Question'.....love y'all [/COLOR]

[peterinmalaga]

You've opened up a real can of worms here, LL. Let me start by questioning one of the assumptions here. We should not be talking of years of oppression. It has been milenia, more than two thousand years at least. The relationship between the churches and gay men has been similar to the relationship between the condemned man and the hangman, except that we have often been condemned in batches of thousands and instead of hanging we have generally been burned, which is why they call us faggots to this day.


I recently read a statistic that said that 75% of all those who identified as LGBT also believed in God.


I believe it was our prime minister, Disraeli, who said that there are “lies, damned lies and statistics”. But this statistic defies all belief. I doubt very much if it is true on your side of the pond, where there have been some very regrettable outbreaks of religion for some time now. On my side of the pond we have the best churches but they are all empty 24/7. The reason is that outbreaks of religion have normally been accompanied by outbreaks of war, oppression, murder and various other sorts of religious festivals: pogroms, inquisitions, final solutions etc. There's not a lot of sympathy for the churches in Europe.


In 2008 1000 people were polled both in the UK and the USA and asked "Do you believe there is a God?". Less than 40% in the UK said yes, compared with 80% in the USA. In the past in the UK if you were asked about your religious affiliation and said “None”, they used to write down “C of E” (church of England). 66% of the population have no actual connection to any religion or church, despite what they tend to write down on official forms. The decline of the church in Europe has continued at a phenomenal rate in the last 50 years. Thank god for that!

For those of us who have an interest in interior design we have found that churches can be converted very successfully into family homes, banks, bars, night clubs and museums.

[libertylove4]

Just to clarify, that statistic is from the U.S.A. and it asked if they believed in a "God or Life Force" not if they believed in religion. I personally believe that religion gets in the way of faith, which many people on this side of the Atlantic have. Yes 80% of Americans believe in God....but less than 25% actually go to church. I think that the issue isn't between Homosexuality and faith, but between homosexuality and the man-made monstrosity of oppression that is organized religion, which as I have seen in my own hometown is entering its swan song of significance in the world. I have no issue with the belief in God, my beef is with organized groups spouting the name of God and then committing unspeakable acts of bigotry.

[marshlander]

My perception of religion? I believe it is principally a method of exercising power over people who seem to feel a need to live in hope of something better next time. Usually "next time" is after death. The majority of believers don't appear to see any irony or contradiction in these conditions. This power is usually exercised by people who know that there isn't going to be a next time and that they stand a pretty good chance of getting something better now by exploiting the fear and greed of the others.

Tactics vary, but it generally helps rally the troops to have a cause. Mostly these causes amount to swelling the ranks of believers. More believers = more money, bigger gangs, more influence, but that may be coincidental since swelling the ranks is often deemed a worthy enough cause in itself. It is also very useful to have a sense of martyrdom somewhere in the equation and real or imagined enemies will usually have been created to keep the faithful fearful and the fearful faithful.

I don't see religion and homosexuality coming together in any meaningful fashion. I might as well ask the same of sleep and magma.

As has been pointed out a belief in a being or beings who have never been proven to exist is not necessarily the same as "religion".

I cannot imagine why 40%, 70% or even 1% would set any store by a collection of arbitrary rules made up by men who thought their prejudices stood more chance of being perpetuated if they passed the responsibility for their pet dislikes on to a god. The fact that these rules and rituals usually claim to be thousands of years old is the very best reason for rejecting them. The stories are more interesting. They allow us to think about meaning and explore ideas, but even if there were a divine being he/she/it has never been anywhere near any "holy" book. The Tanakh, the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Book of Mormon, "Scientology, a Religious Philosophy" or whatever passes for scripture have been written by people and people alone. They reflect the ideas and conditions that existed at the time of their origin or had ideas that were introduced over subsequent decades, centuries or millennia by whoever was translating or mistranslating an earlier version of the text.

There is no point in trying to reconcile the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality with anything. It is only powerful because we can't be bothered to think for ourselves. It is far easier to take someone else's ideas off a shelf. Then we can shrug off any responsibility for the way we behave.

Many people who follow a religion do nice things. They would be quite capable of doing nice things without any religious affiliation, but in their niceness they give their god the credit.

I would love to see other arguments on this and hope we get more of a range of views than have been expressed so far

[sox-and-the-city]

there have been some very regrettable outbreaks of religion for some time now....
...The decline of the church in Europe has continued at a phenomenal rate in the last 50 years. Thank god for that!

For those of us who have an interest in interior design we have found that churches can be converted very successfully into family homes, banks, bars, night clubs and museums.
[/COLOR]

I'm really not sure to begin with your post. You speak of religion like it's a disease...

I recently read a statistic that said that 75% of all those who identified as LGBT also believed in God, how can this be reconciled with the bible's condemnation of homosexuality as expressed in Leviticus and by St. Paul?

Your thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated. During my last open question I promised you all a religion debate so here it is....on your mark....get set.......argue!

I know i'm gonna end up being just as antagonistic as i'm finding everyone else's comments and thus have no high ground here, but surely the point of an honest debate is to establishing the truth and not just to allow a preconceived idea and its exponents to congratulate themselves on being right??

As for Leviticus and St. Paul, there are sound theological arguments against this view. I'm not a bible scholar, so i'll have to go dig out references, and will post back when i find them...

I don't see religion and homosexuality coming together in any meaningful fashion. I might as well ask the same of sleep and magma.

As has been pointed out a belief in a being or beings who have never been proven to exist is not necessarily the same as "religion".

I cannot imagine why 40%, 70% or even 1% would set any store by a collection of arbitrary rules made up by men who thought their prejudices stood more chance of being perpetuated if they passed the responsibility for their pet dislikes on to a god.

There is no point in trying to reconcile the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality with anything. It is only powerful because we can't be bothered to think for ourselves. It is far easier to take someone else's ideas off a shelf. Then we can shrug off any responsibility for the way we behave.

Many people who follow a religion do nice things. They would be quite capable of doing nice things without any religious affiliation, but in their niceness they give their god the credit.

I would love to see other arguments on this and hope we get more of a range of views than have been expressed so far

Marshy, Peter, your posts sadden me. I'm not really 100% awake and kinda stressing about my exam in the morning but i wanted to express my dismay. Such virulent dislike...

Needless to say for me religion is something very different. I'll be back tomorrow with a more eloquent answer, promise.

[Amigo]

God is Gay.

Actually God is curious.

Wait... God is... confused?

[marshlander]

... Marshy, Peter, your posts sadden me. I'm not really 100% awake and kinda stressing about my exam in the morning but i wanted to express my dismay. Such virulent dislike...

Needless to say for me religion is something very different. I'll be back tomorrow with a more eloquent answer, promise.

Hi sox, honey. Best wishes for your exam ... but why are you stressing over something that doesn't matter - or is this a different exam? Whatever, good luck anyway

I hope you are not sad on my account. I feel happier since shaking off the tyranny of religion than I ever did trying to live it, and I've spent approximately both halves of my life trying each.

[fredv3b]

LL, thanks for the debate.

The second part is how can you see religion and homosexuality coming together and working together in a meaningful fashion./quote]

I really cannot comment on any religion other than Christianity.

I recently read a statistic that said that 75% of all those who identified as LGBT also believed in God, how can this be reconciled with the bible's condemnation of homosexuality as expressed in Leviticus and by St. Paul?

Just to clarify, that statistic is from the U.S.A. and it asked if they believed in a "God or Life Force" not if they believed in religion.

To be honest I think that question is so vague that the answer is meaningless.

However as to the question of the bible. I think the book of Leviticus is easily dealt with. There is so much in that book that Christians ignore, e.g. eating shellfish and pork, allowing menstruating women into Church, etc., etc. that frankly its just plain irrational to pick certain verses to follow and others to ignore.

Most of the other references in the bible simply don't refer to homosexuality per se, but condemn a particular aspect of it (e.g. male prostitution) or contain a word of debatable translation.

As far as I am aware the only unambiguous statement, outside of Leviticus, that homosexuality per se is wrong is in Paul's Epistle to the Romans

For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonour; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

Essentially orthodox Christian views of homosexuality rest on a single statement within the who of the Bible which was written by someone who never met Jesus.

You've opened up a real can of worms here, LL. Let me start by questioning one of the assumptions here. We should not be talking of years of oppression. It has been milenia, more than two thousand years at least. The relationship between the churches and gay men has been similar to the relationship between the condemned man and the hangman, except that we have often been condemned in batches of thousands and instead of hanging we have generally been burned, which is why they call us faggots to this day.

Peter, whilst agree that the Church has more than its fair share of guilt, many gays have been imprisoned or executed by the State.

Marshy, I have to admit that your general attitude to religion saddens me, also.

I don't see religion and homosexuality coming together in any meaningful fashion. I might as well ask the same of sleep and magma.

There is no point in trying to reconcile the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality with anything.

Yes there is! I don't want to have to wait for the world to become atheist for gay acceptance. Religion has been with us a long time, even if it is dying, its not doing so quickly.

[marshlander]

Oh dear, it was never my intention to make people sad! The question asked for my "perceptions of religion" and I have tried to convey the drift of what they have become over many years not only of struggle and debate, but also for my first quarter of a century a lot of prayer, fasting, study and yes, faith. My parents, specially my mother, and church elders and teachers encouraged me to develop a personal relationship with my lord and saviour and I dutifully followed the prescribed formulae. A lengthy sequence of events conspired to awake in me a gradual realisation that I had never had the same aspirations as were expected of me by other members of our congregation and this over a period of years led me to study in more depth the things I had hitherto accepted without question. I came to the conclusion that I no longer shared the beliefs of my "brothers and sisters" and eventually, after a painful and lengthy period of severance, I stopped attending church altogether and thought I had left it all behind me. About ten years ago I went back into counselling during a depressive episode. I never expected that I would be seeing that counsellor for four years. What shocked me even more was the fact that for almost every session during the first two years I found myself talking about the religious experience of my youth. I hadn't got it out of my system and I don't think I ever will.

There are many things I can't explain and know I shall never understand. I find the contemplation of the richness of the mysteries of life fascinating and I love the fact that some of my dearest friends have some pretty quirky ways of looking at life. I find it interesting that some of them feel it necessary, and find it rewarding, to extract meaning from it all. I don’t share that need. I don’t think there is “meaning” in life, but for the short while I am alive I feel a certain drive to make someone else’s burden a little easier to bear when I can. Hardly a day passes when I don't experience at least some awe and wonder at the beauty of the physical and natural world that surrounds me or the utter insignificance of my place in an amazing universe. Every day I rejoice in the extraordinary things that people can create. A large part of my work is spent helping people realise they can make, do and achieve things they never imagined they could. I am genuinely excited when people overcome barriers to tapping into their own creativity. I love stories and I find it fascinating that stories are used not only to entertain, but also to explain, to explore ideas and to share cultural values. Just because science finds ways of explaining the mysterious doesn’t render the telling of stories obsolete. When I remember to do it I appreciate having a time and space that I fill with nothing at all. I don’t need to believe in any higher being to derive physical and emotional benefit from meditating. I may not be able to accept the concept of “spirit” as talked about by subscribers to religions, but my life feels spiritually rich. You are very kind to be concerned, Fred and sox, but perhaps it would be more sensible if I let you know when I need you to feel sad for me.

However, if there are decisions to be made I feel safer weighing up available evidence and coming to a conclusion based on a balance of probability to the limits of my ability to understand. Many people of my acquaintance find sufficient meaning in learning and quoting from books of scripture. I feel a sense of unease and frustration when people choose scripture and religious dogma over reason, evidence and, sadly all too often, human decency. These days I become increasingly angered by those who take advantage of the willingness of many to suspend disbelief, even in the face of overwhelming evidence and argument. Personally I would love to hear from anyone who can explain why a faith-based course of action should take precedence over reason and fairness. Sadly, religious leaders seem mostly only to make sense to others who can accept the validity of the assumptions bound up in otherwise meaningless phrases. Listening to the Archbishop of Westminster try and argue in favour of the Pope’s objections to the passage of the Equality Bill on the radio this morning was a sad example of the way religious leaders retreat into language designed to obscure rather than enlighten in an attempt to validate an untenable position. I may have all the appearance of a sad old man, but I don’t feel sad. The things I hear many religious leaders say simply make me angry. I shall admit I reserve a special anger for the leaders of the LDS church who invented and perpetuated so many lies over nearly two centuries with a lot of very unhappy results.

Fred, you don't need to wait for the world to become atheist. You have already answered the point about Leviticus, which seems perfectly in accord with what I wrote in the rest of the paragraph from which you quoted. To my mind Paul is also easily dealt with. As Saul he persecuted Christians with the greatest zeal. According to the story he was struck blind one day and heard voices. Thereafter his zeal was redirected to convert unbelievers and strengthen the faithful, even if he did a lot of that by telling them off. How much would we accept the judgement of anyone who behaved like that today?

[kitschcamp]

I'm really not sure to begin with your post. You speak of religion like it's a disease...

It is. It's a social meme. How many wars have been fought over exactly who was a prophet and who was a son of god, and which prophet did what?

If you want to know what's wrong with religion try looking at what the Bishop of Rome said to the UK - that equality is wrong, and they should go back to saying that gays are subnormal and should be treated differently. And this guy is respected worldwide? Jeez...

The Christian church was built on a fraud - the teachings of Paul have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. There is no connection between the two. It was further corrupted by the Romans as a way to control their diverse empire, providing a relatively easy religion to roll out across Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

Religion screws people up. I'm living proof. Thanks to the "teachings" of the church I believed I was evil and would burn in hell. Thanks, God. Great idea that, make me gay to test me, and then try and make me live my life you want it to be, rather than the way you made me. What a wonderful way to live my life, eh? Be happy and have eternal damnation. Or be unhappy but be promised eternal life - oh, wonderful.

How logical is that? Why should anyone praise a god that is a cosmic practical joker?

Today my "religion" is Dawkinsian or Devout/Radical Aetheist.

But you get your visa application returned when you put those on the form...