God vs. Gay

[jbrowder24]

I mean, how can so many people think that only their way could possibly be the only right way? Obviously there are many people who have a broader view and don't automatically think that those disagreeing with them will go to hell. Many people believe in the community of church without necessarily agreeing with certain tenets of their faith. But to have so little understanding of the world and so little empathy for others, for those that are more strict in believing only their way gets them to an afterlife... that just confounds me.

Also, I apologize for not more carefully wording such a question, but I am pretty sure my overall gist was received if reading the entire post, please don't just quote one element and nitpick at the wording. As I said, I've had faith and I know plenty of other peoples with faith, I don't think everyone I know is wrong and I don't presume to know a right answer in an area like faith, I just wish some people were more open-minded.

[OrphanPip]

I was baptized in a United Church of Canada, which is a church that accepts homosexuality and performs gay marriage, but I was raised in an Anglican household (my mother only had me baptized there because it was the only Protestant church in walking distance of our home).

My parents in general were never very good Christians, adamant in proclaiming their belief, but seemingly following whatever personal brand of Christianity they deemed fit. My mother can't seem to decide if she's a communist or a Christian, she insists that Toryism is sinful. We only attended church on Easter and Christmas, up until some Koreans bought the Anglican church and my mother gave up on finding a new one.

My mother is sketchy around the issues of gay marriage, but she has never been anti-gay. When my aunt kicked out my cousin for being a lesbian at 17, my parents supported her. This resulted in our little family unit being estranged from the larger family. Then when I was 14, my mother was a witness at my cousin's wedding to her partner, and none of her siblings or parents came (None of this progressive attitude stopped my mother from having a fit over my own sexuality though, :p)

So, I was raised to hold "Christian" values and morals, but those never included anything anti-gay from my parents. I never felt ostracized from Christianity in that sense.

However, as a rationalist with an interest in science, I eventually lost faith.

To make a long story short, my parents managed to raise 2 atheist sons, so they must have done something right along the way. They were too committed to tolerance, liberalism, and free thought to successfully raise Christian children.

[fredv3b]

I am sorry, my intention was not to nitpick. I was trying to be Socratic.

As I said, I've had faith and I know plenty of other peoples with faith, I don't think everyone I know is wrong and I don't presume to know a right answer in an area like faith, I just wish some people were more open-minded.

You seem to wish that people of faith were in doubt that their beliefs were correct. If people were genuinely open minded would they have faith in a 2,000 year old book that they were brought up to believe?

[jbrowder24]

People can have faith in a book and still call in to question certain elements, and many people do this from everything from contraceptives to eating shrimp to attending a mass. I know plenty of people who are indeed open-minded, but still have great faith. That is why I said I wish "some" people were more open-minded; as plenty already are and still have faith. If I had meant "I wish all people would stop believing in an old book and be open-minded to all possibilities", I would have said so. Perhaps you need to re-read about what I said about being glad faith could help my mom during a tough time, as you seem to think I am trying to push some anti-faith agenda here when I clearly am not.

And for any Christians here, I think Jesus would encourage his followers to be open-minded as well, and not cast judgment as has been evidenced in many passages from casting the first stone to Prodigal son story to healing lepers.

[posterpicture]

It 's not about God Vs. Gay.
It 's all about bigot people vs. gay

God never say that he hates gay.

[romannose]

The question arises, what if Jesus Christ was 'gay'? I have read arguments to suggest He was, to me His sexuality is of no importance; but His words are.

[Gilbert]

Kitschcamp....Good question. God sure doesn't make believing in him very easy sometimes. The Christian religion, like most others, can be very confusing. Everyone gets something different out of the Bible, because this is one hard book to figure out. You can interpret it to make it support almost anything you want to believe about being a Christian. Who's got it right? Beats me. Some churches tell people that the way they believe is the only way to believe and that all other churches are wrong. My church would never do that. All we ask is that you believe in the ressurection of Jesus Christ and try to be a good Christian. We invite ALL Chirstians to our communion table which many churches don't do, because they don't consider you a Christian if you don't go to their church. We feel we don't have the right to judge people and decide who is Christian and who is not Christian. That's between them and their God. I guess it's what's in your heart and your conscious as to which denomination you follow.

To tell you the truth, I don't sweat the little details. From all my years of being brought up in the church I've simplified my beliefs down to this: Basically, Christ is all about love, caring for your fellow man, and not hurting anyone. I believe that sums the Bible up as well as how to live your life as a Christian. God doesn't care if you are gay. He doesn't have time for that petty crap. He's about love. He loves all people.

There a lot of people out there who wear their religion on their sleeves and call themselves Christian. Many of these people seem to go against everything that stands God stands for. For instance, many people who fight to save stem cells are the same people who want to cut programs for the poor, and some go as far as condemming the poor, because they are poor. As Christians we are supposed to care about the poor and try to help them.

The shortcomings of some churches and individuals is not a God flaw. It's a people flaw.

Let me close (finally) by saying that, from time ot time, I've had my doubts about God, but I try to hang in there and keep the faith...and don't ask me why. It's very hard to explain. I was raised as a Christian, and when you look at the basic ideals that Christianity is supposed to encompass (peace, love, caring) it's it seems like a very good thing.

[fredv3b]

People can have faith in a book and still call in to question certain elements, and many people do this from everything from contraceptives to eating shrimp to attending a mass.

People can have faith in parts of a book and be open-minded about other parts. However it is logically impossible for people to have faith and be open-minded about the same thing.

as you seem to think I am trying to push some anti-faith agenda here when I clearly am not.

I do not think that. I think you are only OK with faith so long as it is in something you agree with or think harmless.

[jbrowder24]

Thanks Fred for telling me what I think. I couldn't possibly know what I think!

Seriously, if my posts come off as uncertain, it is perhaps because I am open-minded to faith possibilities and a little unsure of what to think... but I do not think what you say I think, so stop putting words in my mouth. I have friends and relatives who are pastors, etc.

I do agree that faith perhaps should be harmless, as too often it's been twisted to do harm (see Crusades, Holocaust, today's terrorists), but that doesn't mean I need religion to be something I agree with. From people that live the Amish lifestyle to Christian scientists not using medicine to those who believe in reincarnation.... I am not sure I agree with, but I have great respect for people with faith.

Perhaps, despite repeating it a second time and now a third, you didn't get that I said "some" people. I say some, because it's the people that are hypocrits that bother me the most - the people that say they are Christians but do not live in Christ's example, or who pick and choose what sins are reprehensible to them (premarital sex? we'll forgive. gay? go to hell). So yes, I wish "some" people were more open-minded, that doesn't mean I need everyone to believe things that I agree with. I do have a problem with religion dictating law in a country that is supposed to have both freedom of religion and separation of church & state, but I do not have a problem with people practicing their religion as long as they aren't an extremist thinking they need to kill or bomb somewhere in the name of God, Allah, etc.

Or perhaps it's my use of open-minded, that we just have different definitions, but you really are inferring things onto me that I have not said or intended.

[fredv3b]

Thanks Fred for telling me what I think. I couldn't possibly know what I think!

You're welcome, as you told me what I think.

My intention is not to put words in your mouth, I am trying to follow through the logical consequences of your statements as best I understand them.

I did read that you said some people. But that is my point your are OK with some people's religious beliefs beliefs but not others.

or who pick and choose what sins are reprehensible to them (premarital sex? we'll forgive. gay? go to hell).

How do you feel about those who pick and choose the other way around?

I do have a problem with religion dictating law in a country that is supposed to have both freedom of religion and separation of church & state

How does religion dictate law in America? Should people be banned from voting as their religion dictates?

I think objecting to people's thoughts and beliefs is at best a pointless exercise. If people believe that I am going to hell for being gay, because someone told them that a two millenia old book written in a language they don't understand says so, then that belief doesn't harm me. I have no grounds to object.

If some one fails to treat me civilly, or votes against my right to marry, etc. then that action harms me and I have every right to object to it. I don't care whether such actions were part of practicing their religion. If someone incites someone to do the same, I object to it but don't care if they are practicing their religion.

I do not think there should be any specific protection of freedom of religion beyond general liberty, freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc. that we all enjoy, religious or not. I do not see why irrational beliefs should have special protections.