Unprotected Sex

[fredv3b]

Reuters are reporting that AIDS researchers in Australia have found that the widespread use of modern anti-HIV drugs (which often reduce the the amount of virus in a patient's bloodstream to undetectable levels) hasn't reduced the risk of HIV transmission through anal sex.

While I am sure this is scientifically interesting etc. the article implies that significant numbers of Australian men who know that they are HIV positive are continuing to have unprotected sex. I can, sort of, understand why men who are HIV negative (or at least believe themselves to be so) have unprotected sex. The actual risk per encounter is not that high, so I can see how they convince themselves that it won't happen to them, and let's face it young men in general tend to do risky things, just look at road-accident statistics. I am not saying that is an excuse or anything but I can understand the thought process. What I don't understand is men who know that they are HIV-positive who have unprotected sex. Sooner or later they will infect someone. What's the thought process? Do they not believe they will pass it on, do they not care? I really don't understand. Can anyone help enlighten me? I don't want to be judgemental, I just want to understand how it happens.

Please can this NOT TURN INTO A MORAL DEBATE. I fully appreciate it has a moral side to it, but can we just leave it to one side. I very much doubt that calling HIV-positive men who have unprotected sex immoral, will change their behaviour. As this is posted in the Health & Sex - Boys forum you can post anonymously, perhaps somebody has some experience they would be prepared to share anonymously? What did you do? How did you think/feel about it, before and after?

I really believe that this is important. This is about finding out how we can stop the spread of a serious disease. Also I believe that whether we make a serious effort to deal with HIV/AIDS within the gay community shows whether there is really such a thing as the gay community or is it just a phrase that sounds nice.

[marshlander]

I am not aware that I know personally any positive men who deliberately or negligently put others at risk, but I do know people who have gone out of their way to catch the virus. Desperately sad things happen sometimes. In one situation known to PA and me the man was in a relationship with a positive partner. He felt that contracting HIV would bring them closer somehow. Sadly he caught the virus, but his partner could not cope with the guilt and they split up.

Whilst we're floating sort of understandings I can see anger being a part of the picture for some positive people who take risks with the safety of others.

[colinmackay]

What's the thought process? Do they not believe they will pass it on, do they not care? I really don't understand. Can anyone help enlighten me? I don't want to be judgemental, I just want to understand how it happens.

Personally, I think it is a lack of education for many. Or that they go with the most optimistic "research". Of course, that is merely an opinion and I don't have any evidence to back it up.

I've noticed that in London there are barebacking clubs for HIV+ men. You have to declare that you are positive to be permitted in. And I see that and think: Do these guys not realise that they might catch a more vicious strain and do themselves even more damage?

I've also been in contact with a guy who has indicated that he wants to bareback with me. I've refused. He countered that he's clean, he was tested recently and was HIV-. He refuses to see my logic that all the test shows was that he was clean 3 months prior to the test. In those 3 months he may have become infected.

I try not to be judgemental and if that is how he wants to live his life that is up to him. However, I feel pity for him because he is needlessly putting his life at risk.

Another example is a guy I know who complains bitterly that it just isn't the same with a condom. My argument that he just needs to experiment with different condoms until he finds one that works for him just doesn't seem to be taken in. (Which is why last year he was explaining to the nurse in the GUM Clinic about all the different nationalities he had unprotected sex with while on holiday)

So, I think that for some it is just a self-destructive personality. Why do some people self-harm?

You are absolutely right - It is something that needs to be tackled. Being judgemental and moralising doesn't actually help. I can only imagine how awful it must feel to find out you are HIV+ on its own without the added pressures of the community or society coming down on you too. That would only seek to drive it underground.

Another interesting question is: If you find out you are HIV+ who do you tell?

Because of all the judgemental attitudes I'm currently of the opinion that it would only be a very small select group. (Probably consisting of any partner and my two closest friends)

I'm also of the opinion that I shouldn't discuss any negative test results either because if that status ever changes people could infer that any change in my previous openness would indicate also a corresponding change in status.

However, that goes against my policy of being totally open about myself. (A change I made when I came out as I believe that it was that lack of openness that assisted my stay in the closet). So what do I do?

[fredv3b]

I've noticed that in London there are barebacking clubs for HIV+ men. You have to declare that you are positive to be permitted in. And I see that and think: Do these guys not realise that they might catch a more vicious strain and do themselves even more damage?

I can sort of see how they reckon that most of the damage is already done and that it is an opportunity to have sex without having to think about HIV.

Another example is a guy I know who complains bitterly that it just isn't the same with a condom. My argument that he just needs to experiment with different condoms until he finds one that works for him just doesn't seem to be taken in. (Which is why last year he was explaining to the nurse in the GUM Clinic about all the different nationalities he had unprotected sex with while on holiday)

*Warning Incendiary Comment* I know this is really controversial but I think it just isn't true that condoms don't 'spoil' sex. You have to put one on in the mounting heat of passion and it makes you think about diseases, (nobody's going to fall pregnant ), nobody wants to think about diseases, least of all then. In the spirit of honest discussion I'll admit that my bf and I don't use condoms any more, were monogamous, I trust him, we've both been tested. It's nice not to have that interruption any more. I think we have to admit that guys have to be motivated to wear a condom. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that you can't have good, or even great, sex using a condom just that it is a detraction, albeit minor.

Another interesting question is: If you find out you are HIV+ who do you tell?

Because of all the judgemental attitudes I'm currently of the opinion that it would only be a very small select group. (Probably consisting of any partner and my two closest friends)

Good question. A friend of my bf is HIV positive, he's very open with his friends about it, but then he moves in rather modern liberal London circles. However he is is looking for a relationship, eventually he meets a guy who he seems to 'click' with, they go on a few dates, things are looking promising, it reaches the point that he ought to tell him, he does and then, more often than not, things really cool down. On the one hand I ask myself would I get into a relationship with someone who has HIV?, on the other hand I can really see how given the usual reaction it can be tempting not to tell. Transfer that to a more 'casual' situation, the other guy is apparently not expecting you to bother with a condom, I can imagine how insisting is half admitting that you are positive and risking the other guy just saying no, and that's the end of your hoped for f*ck. But that is just my imagination, is that how things happen in real life?

However, that goes against my policy of being totally open about myself. (A change I made when I came out as I believe that it was that lack of openness that assisted my stay in the closet). So what do I do?

There is a limit to how open you should be about yourself. At the end of the day there is such a thing as too much information . Where you should draw the line on openness, your guess is as good as mine.

[princealbertofb]

One reason that I think of is that some gay men probably have a death wish... and the second is that until being gay is completely accepted and acceptable and people stop calling us names for this, that and everything and blame us for the ills of this world, then maybe it'll be easier to come to terms with the fact that we are allowed to have a life and we have a right to live and be living. Probably there is an integrated part of gay psyche that develops with the idea that we aren't supposed to "be here", so isn't the quickest way to some form of peace to choose to die? There is something in the process that is akin to suicide. In other words, low self worth.

[Anonymous]

isn't the quickest way to some form of peace to choose to die? There is something in the process that is akin to suicide. In other words, low self worth.

I've looked into that abyss, but not because of my sexuality. I can completely understand the inviting nature of that release.

Anon because so few people know and I'm not ready to admit that to the world yet. It was years ago and while I did eventually get the support from friends and family for the situation I was in I was also heavily critised for even so much as thinking about suicide.

[princealbertofb]

Isn't one of the reasons for suicide having such bad press the mere fact that it makes everyone around the dead person feel guilty or helpless and that it's a very shitty feeling that you either didn't see it coming, or couldn't find a way to help? The low self worth that led to a suicide just splutters and spreads all over the entourage and contaminates minds. It is a difficult mess to clean up.

[sox-and-the-city]

I want to warn everyone now that what i'm about to say is extremely controversial and anyone who is likely to be irritated/offended/react negatively should not read.

First off, personally i DO feel that condoms spoil sex in a very real way. Let's face it, human sexual organs aren't exactly pretty, and the placement of them is often (and very accurately) likened to placing a fairground in a sewage works. Sexual intercourse as a process when thought of in the abstract is a disgusting concept. Sticking bits into other bits and risking all kinds of diseases, exchange of bodily fluids etc. It's not pretty or glamorous but it's something we are driven to do and enjoy and i believe in the world of nature it's just dolphins who share our propensity to do it for pleasure. If i'm wrong on this anyone feel free to correct me. Obviously due to certain incidents in my past i also have a lot of emotional baggage and can't really enjoy sex on several levels as i'm still dealing with things that have happened in the past.

For me the only really enjoyable thing about sex is the sensation. Not the feeling of being touched, it takes a lot for me to be able to bear the thought, never mind the reality of a man touching me, no i mean that overwhelming sensation of purely sexual pleasure you get from being stimulated. Something which is reduced by wearing a condom.

Now i get drunk and do a LOT of stupid things. Mostly because i have to be drunk to do them without aforementioned baggage getting in the way, but still i do stupid things which i regret in the morning and which have earned me a reputation which i personally do not much care for. Perhaps the most stupid of these things is abandoning all thought of condoms and other related safety paraphernalia (helmet, machine gun, cross, crampons) and just focusing on making drunken sexytime. So far nothing too terrible has come of this (though that said there is a drunken fumble in the Christmas holidays that went largely unaccounted for and which i think testing is required. Since then i have been senisble and used the old joy destroyers on my one recent encounter. Bhoy do they reduce the feeling you get to like, ermmm... ZERO. Meh.

I'll take my own health and put it at risk but would never do so with someone else's and i rather foolishly expect the same courtesy from others, knowing full well it doesn't work like that.

So i personally can totally understand why HIV positive people might want the opportunity not to have to worry about disease and be able to have sex that isn't filtered through rank plastic. It's not enjoyable having a slice of cake if it's still wrapped in clingfilm, so WHY wouldn't a penis be similarly ruined??

Doubtless this is a cue for shock/horror/revulsion/being cast out never to return (yay, exile!!)

And now moving on the REALLY controversial note raised here, i daren't opine about suicide because i know how deep the nerve it touches runs. Best just to say that i, too, once considered such an action in a pit of despair but didn't do it. I know how it is to feel that desolate but i also know what it's like for the people that are left behind.

[princealbertofb]

You know Sox, that we (in any case I) love you too much for you to be ruined, so please please, get tested, yes, and... and get the baggage sorted out, love. It's probably a question of getting the right sort of therapy. Get it to no longer get in the way of your enjoyment of sex and also maybe then find a steady boyfriend / partner that you can enjoy sex with free of the paraphernalia.
Note to myself, and therefore to you too.
Alcohol may make you brave enough to confront the situation, may lower your sensitivity enough to let you do stupid things, as you say, but obviously also vital things for you (being loved and loving back, even if only for a brief encounter), but it also lessens sensations and nervous reaction (it does for drivers' rapidity to hit that brake, so you can understand how it would also work for pleasure centres in the brain) so that could partly be the thing to lessen your sense of sexual well being. It's the drunkenness that probably needs to be tackled first, and then again, the baggage that was there well before the drunkenness.

[princealbertofb]

So Fred, thanks for bringing this subject up, it is quite paramount.