sox-and-the-city Wrote:... Where are we to teach young people about morality, our perceptions of morality and what that means to different cultures?? We wonder why we have all the problems we do in Britian with our scummy underclass of essentially sociopathic youths who have no concept of community when our educational system entirely fails to give children an opportunity to socialise properly and understand what it means to be a functioning member of society and you would remove the only area of education which gives children a chance to explore and understand what values and morals are??
p.s having read this over i want to apologise for he general tone of it, it isn't meant to sound so accusatory...
In reverse order, don't worry. I think I know where you are coming from and have a fair idea of what you mean
If I thought that a programme of religious education was the only means available to schools through which to pass on values, ideas and spiritual insight, of course I would not be advocating removing it. The content of each school's RE syllabus is set up by local standing advisory committees and is as much a legal requirement as any other area of the National Curriculum. Because those committees are, in the main, composed of representatives from local religious organisations the syllabi tend to have a particular slant. Many faith systems don't actually get a look in. Hence pretty much every school I have been in will "do" Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and Christianity and will address little else. Coming from a sort of Christian background I think I can comment that what is taught is nothing to do with spirituality. There was a phase round here a while ago of infants taking part in pretend weddings to illustrate what happens in a Christian church. With a very loaded curriculum there is simply not the time to look at, for example, the parables and work through how their meanings might apply to today's society. Bearing in mind that few teachers in this part of the world will have first hand knowledge of Christianity, let alone Islam, Hinduism or Judaism, religious education is often often little more than talking about the artefacts in the RE box. Of course the alternative to that, which many schools do, is to get a visiting speaker in. The dangers of that are manifest and there is never the time to address the issues that such visits raise.
There would appear to be an assumption among many believers that atheists are incapable of a spiritual experience and are somehow missing out on an important part of life. I disagree profoundly with this point of view. Jesus, if he existed, stated his purpose as: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 - New American Standard Version).
Whether one translates that purpose literally or uses the sword-wielding machismo as a metaphor for debate and division one might say that he is challenging us to think things through and act accordingly. I can live with that even though I would express it rather differently.
I find my challenges in ideas. Ideas can be presented in many forms. I work extensively in the arts and I can find beauty, horror, challenge and accord in ideas represented in the works of great artists, whether they be the visual, tactile, or sounds and words of music and literature.
School inspectors used to look for evidence of pupils experiencing "awe and wonder" as a sign that the school was addressing the spiritual development of its pupils. Strangely I never saw any evidence of this in an RE lesson, but many times I have seen children powerfully affected by taking them to a concert hall and exposing them to powerful music.
All schools are communities and reflect a larger community. Appropriate behaviour is addressed throughout the working day in any school I have worked in (and there have been hundreds as you may know). An assembly does not have to be Christian or representative of any other faith to begin to address larger issues that affect us all. As far as I can see it is not so much schools that cultivate the number of "sociopathic youths with no concept of community" although I would the first to say that many could do better. Those attitudes come mainly from the community outside school and often, sadly, a dysfunctional home environment. MPs and bankers on the make? Of course we emulate those pillars of society. Church leaders screeching about the evils of homosexuality? No wonder we are in a muddle.
I taught in a Catholic school for four years and was very happy there for the first three years. Then I started to understand a bit about the curriculum, especially those subjects which are not as well taught in state schools. I mean hypocrisy, intolerance, sophistry, religion, snobbery, conformity, achievement at any cost, the hidden curriculum. The headteacher was a wonderful woman (no irony) until the witch-hunt began. Within a year they destroyed her and she died as a result of the pressure. That is what religious zealots do and nobody does it better. My children went to state schools and received an excellent education – in Liverpool, would you believe. Both went on to Edinburgh university, their friends went to Cambridge.
What faith schools do better than state schools is the process of selection at the age of 11. The reason they do it better is because state schools aren't allowed to select! Allegedly the church schools select on the grounds of religious affiliation. Well, if you believe that, you probably believe in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas too. They select upwardly mobile middle class families who will pressurize their kids into succeeding and who are willing to go to church twice a year to help their kids gain an advantage. If the kids don't work hard enough the schools put pressure on the parents, who have already internalized the curriculum of hypocrisy, intolerance, sophistry, religion, snobbery, achievement at any cost and conformity and the kids deliver the goods because they are bribed, threatened, deprived of treats etc. by their parents.
I wouldn't wish that education on any child and see it as a recipe for disaster for the future of our society. In religious education the hidden curriculum comes out of the closet and is openly flaunted as morality. Morality is not a subject taught in schools, it is a process, a way of life. It is a bit like religion (the hidden curriculum) but is exactly the opposite - honesty, tolerance, working for the good of all etc.
As is often the case, I can only comment on my personal experience.
While I was not home schooled, my dearest friend home schools her children, and they are about the most well-adjusted, tolerant kids. Yes, they are a religious family, but her kids would have been religious, regardless.
Being from the US, I hold very deeply to individual rights, and I get my hackles up whenever people suggest the state has the right to dictate certain aspects of my life.
Just like I find it wrong on every level that the state thinks it has the right to impose religious sensibilities regarding homosexuality on the populace at large, despite being a secular nation according to the constitution, I think it's wrong for the state to deny the religious sensibilities of individuals who wish to teach their children themselves.
It is as wrong to tell a couple that they can't get married because someone else's religion disagrees with their choice of partner as it is to tell a person that they don't have the right to raise their children a certain way become someone else disagrees with their religion.
With any luck, the next generation will accept that people have the right to be who they are, and no one's religion or lack thereof should have any bearing on anyone else.
Ok I went to a catholic school, I didn't read this thread fully cause to be honest I think i get the just of it.
The catholic school I went to wasn't exactly full on JESUS GOD BLAH BLAH BLAH, it was more of a we'll teach you everything but we want to focus on our religion cause that's why you're at a catholic school.
So while their I studied other religions we debated for and against believing in god and all of that, I think it was a very respectful school in terms of they helped you have your own view in a way they respected those views.
But they also gave the kids the option to opt out of learning other religions for example if you was a die hard catholic you could get a note and say oh I don't want to learn about the muslim religion etc.
Which yeah is find but in a way if gives kids the option to learn other religions on the sly in a way cause its just a case of not telling your folks what they are teaching you.
But I think in this way it gave kids the ability to think like adults which made them in a way feel like adults giving them how i see it better morals and understanding to learning.
Personally I left the school following the buddhist teaching and those morals have stuck just because of the sheer flexibility and if it wasn't for that school I don't think I would have looked into it at all.
I'm not one who likes religion but I think it has its place in society as long as it is taught along side of alternatives and we give kids the ability to stand on their own feet and parents dont push it on their kids.
I think a key part in the reason why parents are pushin it is because of the culture that we have grown into with the amount of anti social behaviour people see it as oh if our kids learn the bible they wont do bad, which is wrong and right but its a easy way out of a global problem.
AgentWashington Wrote:... It is as wrong to tell a couple that they can't get married because someone else's religion disagrees with their choice of partner as it is to tell a person that they don't have the right to raise their children a certain way become someone else disagrees with their religion.
With any luck, the next generation will accept that people have the right to be who they are, and no one's religion or lack thereof should have any bearing on anyone else.
Being "who they are" and making a choice to subscribe to a particular religion are not the same game at all. Of course parents make all sorts of decisions about how their children are brought up. We don't have to search very far back in history or even look abroad to other countries to see that parents have sold their children, put them in the workhouse, beaten them, ritually chopped bits off their genitals, chosen their associates and marriage partners and indoctrinated them to the extent they may suffer guilt and mental illness if they attempt to assert a little independence of thought. Religion has often been involved or called upon in most of these practices. People who don't conform may be ostracised, shunned or excommunicated.
I was brought up LDS and it has taken many years for me to try and deal with the conflicts associated with being gay. It seems immoral that fundamentalist Mormons, for example, (as opposed to the relatively benign mainstream LDS community of which I was a member) expel young men from their communities if they are not chosen to collect a harem of their own. Do you make a distinction between a religion and a cult, because parents who subject their kids to these abuses surely don't. Their judgement is often severely compromised when they are in thrall to the crazies who run these gangs.
The state may get a lot of things wrong and some religious groups may get some things right, but indoctrination has always been a form of abuse. By all means let competent adults believe what they will and live with the consequences, but our children deserve better.
marshlander Wrote:Being "who they are" and making a choice to subscribe to a particular religion are not the same game at all.
Of course it is.
You can't consciously decide to change what you believe. You may embark on a journey of discovery and at the end of it all realize you no longer believe something, but belief is just as integral to a person as any other aspect of themselves.
I'm still struggling to define exactly what I believe these days, but I'll tell you that what I *do* believe, I can't just change it. I can't just ignore it. I can't just pretend it isn't there.
To me, my beliefs ARE part of being who I am. They are not mutually exclusive and separable. Now over time my beliefs have undergone changes, as can be expected, but the fundamental basis of my beliefs are the same. All that changed is some of the 'window dressings' if you will. Details have come and gone, but what I believe in the core of my being is very much who I am, and is as personal to me as my sexuality.
Cults are a different topic. There are extremes that are easy to point out, but there are fuzzier lines towards the center and I can't just define someone else's beliefs as being inferior to my own, or accuse one of being in a 'cult' because I disagree with aspects of their beliefs.
Now clearly when a "religion" involves what is tantamount to force, brain washing, abuse, isolation and other clearly negative aspects, that can easily be said to be harmful. But just because cults and harmful beliefs do exist does not mean that all religions are therefore harmful or cults.
Quote:but indoctrination has always been a form of abuse.
And yet there are those who will claim that raising children to accept homosexuality as a normal part of life is tantamount to 'indoctrination' and therefore abuse as well.
It may not be a religion, but it is the belief of the parents, ... it comes down to, you can't HELP but teach your children what you believe, whether those beliefs are religious in nature or no.
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learn other religions on the sly in a way cause its just a case of not telling your folks what they are teaching you.