Where is the next generation heading?

[AgentWashington]

I think this must be an instance of two peoples divided by a common language, we seem to be meaning different things by the same words.

You state you cannot change or ignore your beliefs, but I am sure you don't follow your beliefs mindlessly, and you are able to take responsibility for your own actions.

No, I don't follow my beliefs mindlessly.

Perhaps where we're getting lost in the common language is by "beliefs" I am not saying "religion".

There are plenty of people who conveniently ignore parts of their religion. There are plenty of people who find religious tenants 'irrational' or struggle to reconcile them.

I am talking about beliefs though. That part within you at the core of your being that, strip all else away - push aside 'rules' and 'laws' and even fear and guilt... what a person believes with all their heart - what no book or religious leader or social norm can change.

My beliefs - not religion, not custom, not stigma - my beliefs are part of the very core of my being, and no, a person doesn't just up and change that on a whim. It's not a "choice". It's part of who I am.

[marshlander]

... That is a statement made, in my view, entirely in ignorance.

I hold my hands up on this one. I have never met any Amish people face to face and I have clearly not read widely enough. My sincere apologies for any hurt caused by my ignorance on this matter. I find it difficult to accept that family members may be "shunned" merely for associating with with a less strict faction of the faith. It seems very cruel. Avoidance (1953) GAMEO

First, the idea that "contemporary" education is somehow better than those of generations past is not only laughably, it is provably false.

I'd be very interested to see your evidence for an assertion such as this.

These days, it is the "contemporary" education system that is dumbing itself down year after year after year.

Again, some evidence would be interesting. If teaching is improving standards should rise. Because more people pass exams doesn't necessarily mean they are getting easier.

For all our 'modern technology,' we seem to have lost the simple ability to teach and learn. All the money and gadgets we dump on it have not improved the problem.

Did I mention technology? I thought this discussion was about fairness and the availability of information to enable young people to make informed choices. Teaching and learning is surely at the heart of the education process. I do not see any day to day evidence in the many schools I work in that we have somehow lost this ability. On the contrary we are more aware of ways that children learn and have more insight as to how to help them overcome obstacles to learning. I hope you are not getting mixed up with arguments over whether our respective education systems are prepared to put in the necessary resources to make it happen while we are busy producing cannon fodder to satiate the world's seemingly rapacious appetite for war.

Second, Amish do not 'force' their children to adopt an Amish lifestyle forever. In fact, the Amish go through a 'coming of age' ritual (for lack of a better way to put it) that sends their children out into the world for a time where they will compare the two 'worlds' and decide, for themselves, if they wish to return to the Amish lifestyle and commit to that faith, or if they wish to 'modernize' and leave their homes and become a member of modern society.

Thank you for putting me right on this point. As a matter of interest, what happens to the relationships in a family where a child chooses to "modernise"?

Learning isn't about how many fancy, battery powered gadgets you've got, it's about being equipped with the tools to both better yourself and expand your understanding. Remember the basics? Reading, Writing and Arithmetic? Those don't require modern technology to teach or learn, and it seems to me that the ability to teach and learn them decays with each passing generation.

That's certainly a broadly held point of view. I haven't got time to look it up since at present, but I'm sure that I read also that employers are pretty interested in new employees also being able to solve problems, work co-operatively, apply creative imagination to real life situations and have a working knowledge of information technology.

The value of community, honest work for honest wage, learning the building blocks of knowledge and an openness to accept your children may someday not follow in your footsteps?

Taken at face value these aims are commendable. Mormon family values are also commendable ... taken at face value.

I really can't fathom your views on their lifestyle.

I really don't have one. There is a lot that is appealing about a back-to-the-garden mentality. I've admitted my mistake in not taking into account a broad enough range of sources for my information and I'm sorry to have caricatured what I read.

Sure, I can understand you may not like their religion, they're not asking you to follow it..., or you may not understand their choice to separate themselves from technology, which again, they're not expecting you to do, but does that really warrant such a blanket condemnation?

I don't have enough information to like or dislike. My point is about information and informed choices. I've seen enough examples of children (and sadly, adults) being excluded from everything and everyone they know and love because they they came to a different conclusion from the rest of the community. If a belief system is so correct it should be able to withstand scrutiny.

[AgentWashington]

I'd be very interested to see your evidence for an assertion such as this.

It's really sad that this is actually not just my opinion. I really wish it was.

(well, I guess google search for 'dumbing down our kids' because I can't post links)

That's just one of a hundred such links you can find. Yes, you can find something on the internet to uphold just about any point of view, but the facts are we *are* dumbing down our tests, year after year, just to get more kids to pass. The problem is that more kids are passing the exams *because* the standards *have* been lowered.

I mean my god, I talk to people only 10 years my jr. who are incapable of using proper grammar! "I seen that last week. I been shopping all day." The inability to use words properly in writing like "too" instead of "to". My last boss used the word 'orientated', and the doozie I heard just recently was 'certificated'! People in America can't even speak their own language these days!

Look at any test from "days gone by" and you'll see. Have you ever seen the 1890's era 8th grade exam (ditto with the google/link thing)? Today's college kids would be hard pressed to pass 8th grade in the 1800's!

Again, some evidence would be interesting. If teaching is improving standards should rise. Because more people pass exams doesn't necessarily mean they are getting easier.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not even angry at schools or teachers. Parents, sadly, have such a critical role to play that is often overlooked that it saddens me. Parents of students failing often want to blame the school, even when it is not the school's fault. They pretty much want to blame someone other than themselves and of course it couldn't possibly be the students!

Every instance is different and unique. Sometimes the teacher isn't a good one, sometimes the parents take no interest and sometimes the kids just don't care, but nothing exists in a vacuum, and kids not caring is much more likely to be the end result of something deeper going on.

Did I mention technology?

"the Amish and the Brethren condemn their children to ignorance by depriving them of contemporary education and access to pretty much anything invented after the seventeenth century"

I understood that to mean modern technology.

[fredv3b]

Thanks for your reply,

I am talking about beliefs though. That part within you at the core of your being that, strip all else away - push aside 'rules' and 'laws' and even fear and guilt... what a person believes with all their heart - what no book or religious leader or social norm can change.

My beliefs - not religion, not custom, not stigma - my beliefs are part of the very core of my being, and no, a person doesn't just up and change that on a whim. It's not a "choice". It's part of who I am.

I understand now. I am not religious, but there are things that I, instinctively, believe but are not 'part of the very core of my being' and I can choose to ignore them. However I still would refer to them as beliefs, as well as those core ideas.

[marshlander]

It's really sad that this is actually not just my opinion. I really wish it was.

(well, I guess google search for 'dumbing down our kids' because I can't post links)

Fair suggestion, but search terms influence the outcome. Rather than "dumbing down our kids" a search for "evidence for exams becoming easier" returned the following articles from UK newspapers The Independent and The Times. I think the picture is more complicated than you suggest. The analogy with climbing Everest seems fair.

“A lot more people get to the top of Everest now than when Hillary and Tenzing reached it in 1953. The mountain’s the same height but equipment and knowledge are better and the routes are better known,” she says. “But it doesn’t change the difficulty of progressing up the mountain, and still some fail to reach the summit.”

but the facts are we *are* dumbing down our tests, year after year, just to get more kids to pass. The problem is that more kids are passing the exams *because* the standards *have* been lowered.

I have no knowledge of the situation in your country, maybe you are correct, but I see a lot of awareness of the dangers and at least some attempts to address them in the UK. I assume that steps are also being taken in the USA to address this perception. I am not a statistician, but I would imagine that for any research on this subject to make sense one has to be looking at changes over an extended period. However, while taking an exam paper from a previous age out of context may provide a quick shock to the system, it hardly reflects the changes in demands placed by society on its schools. I suspect, although I do not know, that schools were not required to teach, for an on-topic example, the aspects of personal, social and health education (and I'm probably out of date on the latest name for it) that moved me to start this thread. I can offer an anecdotal example of a post-16 college that, ten years ago, hired me for a month to teach on a performing arts course. It was decided that I would teach a discrete module through music that had a largely practical, but also research and analysis elements to the work. To cut the story short I could only award passing grades to three out of the fifteen students in the group. For obvious reasons the college wanted me to increase the number, which I could not in all conscience do. I felt that they should at least have attended lessons, taken advantage of the personal tutorials I offered, handed in some work to assess and ensure their contributions in the practical sessions show some evidence of improvement. When I would not increase the number of passes for the class the head of department presented me with the criteria for other modules than the one I'd been teaching in case I could pass them on any of those! I have not since taught at that place. I have worked in many other schools and colleges since then, but have not since come across anything like that degree of blatant institutional dishonesty. So, I'm not saying it isn't happening. I have, though, seen many more examples of students working their socks off to meet deadlines, draft and redraft their work and pester for help when they need it. Many of them work a lot harder than I ever did at school.

I mean my god, I talk to people only 10 years my jr. who are incapable of using proper grammar! "I seen that last week. I been shopping all day." The inability to use words properly in writing like "too" instead of "to". My last boss used the word 'orientated', and the doozie I heard just recently was 'certificated'! People in America can't even speak their own language these days!

Some irony here? I am pretty sure my mother and many of my teachers used to say similar things.

Every instance is different and unique. Sometimes the teacher isn't a good one, sometimes the parents take no interest and sometimes the kids just don't care, but nothing exists in a vacuum, and kids not caring is much more likely to be the end result of something deeper going on.

Agreed. Found an interesting article, supposedly published in 1916, on this too.

[AgentWashington]

I just realized the fundamental problem in this discussion, is I'm speaking from the perspective of the US, and you, the UK.

So that kind of renders both our points accurate and moot at the same time. lol

[marshlander]

I just realized the fundamental problem in this discussion, is I'm speaking from the perspective of the US, and you, the UK.

So that kind of renders both our points accurate and moot at the same time. lol

Interesting, though

Yes the changes in the requirements for teaching sex and relationships education have been going through the UK Parliament. I would imagine that there is no equivalent to a "National Curriculum" in the USA?

[sox-and-the-city]

I mean my god, I talk to people only 10 years my jr. who are incapable of using proper grammar! "I seen that last week. I been shopping all day." The inability to use words properly in writing like "too" instead of "to". My last boss used the word 'orientated', and the doozie I heard just recently was 'certificated'! People in America can't even speak their own language these days!

Funnily enough, it's not your language, you speak a variety of ours

While i'm not one to criticise people trying to uphold correct usage of grammar in general, there are certain areas of the trends in the changes or the way we use language which i find agreeable. Many of the blends young people use today show a great deal of skill with wordplay. Only the other week my friend's brother told me to 'take a chillaxetive.' This really made me smile. Good wordplay is really hard to find on the continent. It turns out English is just particularly suited to it as a language...

Far as educational standards slipping goes, i'm not really sure where i stand. I've experienced exams getting easier (or should that be being made more manageable) first hand, as my year was the last year in Scotland not to receive the now standard formula sheet. But i don't think standards are slipping to the extent that everyone says they are. It seems really unfair that we give young people this one chance to succeed (at exam season) and then when they put their all into it an do well we tell them it's because exams are getting easier. Maybe, just maybe, all those hours spent in schools telling pupils 'how to pass exams' are working??

Also Marshy, going back to your comment about profundity of experience, do you not feel that music is an expression of the soul, and as such, could be interpreted as a religious experience?? Further to that point, i'm gong to gesture to the veritable mountain of religious musical works. I find that they have a power which largely goes beyond the means of secular music. I'll not lie in saying that the power and passion of gospel music had a lot to do with me first wondering whether maybe there was something to this whole "God thing" after all.

I wrote a huge amount more, but then my laptop decided to blue screen of death me and i can't face writing it all out again, so there will be another post when i'm in a more productive frame of mind...

[fredv3b]

Funnily enough, it's not your language, you speak a variety of ours

Technically, I am not sure you can say that Sox.

[sox-and-the-city]

Technically, I am not sure you can say that Sox.

Oh i think that depends entirely on where you stand with regards to the scholarly debate over whether or not Scots is, in fact, a language within its own or not...

Besides, the whole of my dad's side of the family is from Yorkshire. Which sadly means i have peasant blood as well as awesome Jamaican i me hehe :tongue: :tongue: