Nature vs Nurture - Born gay or turned gay?

[Gareth125]

We have had in-depth discussions on this subject many times. Strangely I cannot find the ones that went on more than about a year ago and the search function fails to bring up the discussions I would like to reference here. Andy, have you culled the database? I have tried several times over the past few weeks to find older discussions and the search function has pretty consistently let me down :confused:

As a complete non-scientist my view is that some people are born with a pronounced capacity to love and be loved by members of the same sex. If nurture plays a part it is probably more in suppressing that instinct than not. The dynamic in most societies is, after all, towards conforming to a heterosexual "norm".
I may be intensely curious about what makes me different but, like Peter, I think that once we produce a pathological pathway we are vulnerable to unscrupulous treatment. I do feel very strongly that we are made a more interesting species by diversity. Difference gives us all an opportunity to learn how to adapt and support each other. Unfortunately difference has always been used by some as a stick :mad: The whole eugenics experiment was one awful direction in which some people's curiosity can lead.

Gareth, until 1978 (I think) Mormons did teach that the "mark of Cain" mentioned in Genesis was actually a black skin. That was their justification for refusing men of African descent their priesthood. Just in time God saved the church from financial ruin by giving the prophet at the time a revelation that "all worthy males" could from that point onwards hold the priesthood. Phew! That was handy It was such a huge change in practice (if not in doctrine) that I remember exactly where I was when the phone call relaying the message came through. I was so pleased I actually did a little dance ... This was of course a couple of years before I'd had enough of the whole con trick.

I am somewhat sceptical of the notion that nature has some sort of plan and uses it for the purposes of controlling population. There may be some other protective mechanism at work, but I doubt it is down to a master blueprint.

I know I've posted the John Barrowman programme several times over the years, but since I can't find them on these boards any more here is the first instalment again. There are six YouTube vids that make up the whole one hour programme. YouTube seems to have taken out the links I saved in my favourites so you'll have to search if you want to see more. It is worth it, even if only to ogle the gorgeous Mr. Barrowman ...

Brillaint Video Marsh , will look to find the others on you tube . Don't get me wrong , i dont think that homosexuality is necessary just means for nature to control the population , because its probably a lot more compliacted than that , but the fact that animals are gay too , suggests that there is a biolgical reason for it to occur , and going back to the theory of evolution everything seems to happen for a reason even though we don't know why that is . It is man and religion that create the social taboos and make the social codes that some people believe we all have to live by . You don't have to go back very far in history to realise that it wasn't always this way ( for example in Roman times , homosexuality was widely accepted ) . The problem is religious codes like the bible were written all those years ago , when our knowledge of our world was miniscule compared to what we know now . The problem occurs when people dont take into account of the knowledge we have learned in that time and take the bible in its literal terms , so modern day interpretation using documents written back then causes the problem . If the cause of homosexuality could be proven as not " a lifestyle choice" , then maybe religion will be silenced by science as utter nonsense. U hear about homophobes banging on about how gay people force their issues onto others , Well what about religion ? At least we dont go round knocking on peoples doors thrusting views onto others and shoving copies of literature down their throats or brainwashing people into accepting our views.
I think it's important to get as much research done as possible to find reasons , not to "treat us " , but to finally silence the people who are prejudice against us

[fredv3b]

If the cause of homosexuality could be proven as not " a lifestyle choice" , then maybe religion will be silenced by science as utter nonsense.

'Bible bashers' are rarely swayed by evidence. I very much doubt that they would believe the science. In any case most of them define homosexuality in terms of behaviour not attraction, I freely made a lifestyle choice to live with my boyfriend. Assuming I was born gay nothing forces me to act on it.

[Kiid]

I believe I was born that way. But I think that over time some people may turn but not by the way some people think that it happens (Sodomy)

[colinmackay]

Nature Vs. Nurture.

I think that by nature I am gay. For many years, (about 20 years from mid-teens to last year) I tried to be straight - that's nurture. Society tried to coerce me into conforming to its norms. It tried to get me to play the dutiful son (and I did for a while, it screwed me up even more!) and do all the things that I was "supposed" to do.

Once I accepted that I was gay, the stress levels reduced and I started feeling, not just mentally, but physically better too. (I comfort eat when stressed, so I was quite fat - Down about 25kg now). I am now doing what nature intended (if, nature has a purpose)

Or put it another way, I am now doing what comes naturally to me. My life is much better for it too.

[peterinmalaga]

A lot of the psychologists who research sexuality are either gay themselves, and tend to stick towards the nature side of the argument, or highly religious and stick to the nurture side of the argument, and think it is due to some kind of 'social disfunction' causing such a terrible sin!

Sort of pulls the carpet from under any notion of scientific objectivity.

[wrudin88]

id say your born gay and nothing wrong with that - i knew i was before i really knew what sex was...as a kid im sure i didnt choose it which i really find funny when people say " well, its your choice" when u tell them your gay - this may sound controversial but why would you choose to be gay with all the predutice about - if as i teen i would have chosen to be like all my mates and trying to get with every girl goin and fitting in with no worries at all, instead of worring whether people would accept me as gay - turns out nobody gave a crap anyway mile: but maybe i was very lucky compared to some

Exactly.

[marshlander]

... but the fact that animals are gay too , suggests that there is a biolgical reason for it to occur , and going back to the theory of evolution everything seems to happen for a reason even though we don't know why that is .

I accept there are causes, but I don't consider that the same as reasons. Does the theory of evolution actually suggest everything happens for a reason? Again things happen as a consequence of other events and, if an outcome is strong enough, it survives. Amongst more generally expected outcomes it strikes me that nature can be pretty chaotic too.

... If the cause of homosexuality could be proven as not " a lifestyle choice" , then maybe religion will be silenced by science as utter nonsense.

Far too many vested interests for religion to be silenced by anything. For example, if the present pope can't shut down the Catholic Church, do you seriously think anyone else is going to be able to?

... I think it's important to get as much research done as possible to find reasons , not to "treat us " , but to finally silence the people who are prejudice against us

Got to love an idealist Just remember you'll be old like me one day :eek: I am absolutely not averse to the pursuit of knowledge, but the difficulty pretty much always lies with how knowledge is applied. You can be sure there'll be some who'll find a way to use it to our disadvantage. Maybe I'm just a tad cynical :tongue: but that's why I'm prepared to be out there and make a noise when I feel so moved. I spent too many years in the closet to go back in quietly now.

[fredv3b]

Sort of pulls the carpet from under any notion of scientific objectivity.

Perhaps, however a fair bit of psychology would not fall within Popper's definition of science.

Also, following on from Marshy, if we want people to treat us better. I think we'd do better by giving moral and religious reasons than scientific ones.

[Gareth125]

I would like to comment on that John Barrowman film , you mentioned earlier Marsh , I could only track down episodes one , three and six unfortunately , but I found the whole thing deeply moving and quite emotional at times . I realised exctly what the choices to ignore who i was have done to me . When it showed about life as a gay child , that was exactly how I was . If I had watched this programme maybe 20 years ago I would perhaps have understood who I was more and listened to my inner feelings . To me the argument that being gay is a lifestyle choice is completely blown away, there are changes that happen before we are born that affect are sexual preference . Anyone wondering if they might be gay or struggling to come to terms with their inner self should watch this programme .

[marshlander]

I would like to comment on that John Barrowman film , you mentioned earlier Marsh , I could only track down episodes one , three and six unfortunately , but I found the whole thing deeply moving and quite emotional at times . I realised exctly what the choices to ignore who i was have done to me . When it showed about life as a gay child , that was exactly how I was . If I had watched this programme maybe 20 years ago I would perhaps have understood who I was more and listened to my inner feelings . To me the argument that being gay is a lifestyle choice is completely blown away, there are changes that happen before we are born that affect are sexual preference . Anyone wondering if they might be gay or struggling to come to terms with their inner self should watch this programme .

I'm glad you enjoyed the programme. Unfortunately the BBC seem to have leaned on YouTube to remove parts of the film for "copyright" reasons. This is one programme I was hoping was going to left in place as a public service.

I wonder how different my life might have been had I been prepared to crowd out the ugly voices of my youth, but I don't waste time over those kinds of regrets (except I would have liked to have known PA when I was younger and fitter ). Had I accepted being gay from a much younger age I would probably now be without my children and grandchildren and, to be honest, I could well have been one of the 80s casualties.