Nature vs Nurture - Born gay or turned gay?

[Lake]

I believe I was born gay, can it be altered, do I want to be altered, I will have to ponder over them questions.

[fredv3b]

Can it be altered, the evidence is certainly against it. I have to admit that, assuming it could be altered, I was distantly agnostic about what I whether I would want to before I met my bf. Now I wouldn't change it for the world, gays have more fun.

[peterinmalaga]

Perhaps, however a fair bit of psychology would not fall within Popper's definition of science.

Also, following on from Marshy, if we want people to treat us better. I think we'd do better by giving moral and religious reasons than scientific ones.

I'm sure that Popper's understanding of science would include psychology " and a lot of other stuff that many would not assume is science. According to him, "science" (in the narrow sense of physics etc.) was by no means as *scientific" as it claimed to be.

I am not sure we can rely on moral philosophers or religions to give us a fair deal - but I don't want to get involved in a debate about religion here.

The problem with science for us as gays is that it is "out there" and recognized by most people as an authoritative source of credible explanations for practically everything. To be fair, most of us too (including myself and probably you too Fred??) accept an awful lot of scientific explanations as intrinsically correct.

Thanks for pointing us in the direction of the video, Marsh

[wouldlikemuscle]

It's an interesting question. I personally lean towards the born gay hypothesis. However I remain to be convinced that the answer is, in reality, important. What good would having the answer do us?

I think it could change things if a definite answer was found.

To be born gay would mean we can really make moves with gay rights... Several countries around the world still give the death sentence for homosexuality. How would you be able to justify death because of how we are born? Also, you could challenge the religious nutjobs... pope included... because if we are born in the image of God and we are born gay... then God wanted us to be that way.. I'm a total athiest btw! lol

To be nurtured as gay means that methods could be adopted to ensure your offspring don't become gay. It would also give much greater acceptance to these "gay therapy" things that try and turn gay people straight.

Personally... I don't think a definite answer could ever be found... I think both cases are true. Some would say I was born into an environment that would give me a higher chance of becoming gay. But since way before I knew about gay/straight, there were things I can look back on about myself (and not my environment) that would provide indicators to my being gay, thus being born gay.

[fredv3b]

I'm sure that Popper's understanding of science would include psychology " and a lot of other stuff that many would not assume is science. According to him, "science" (in the narrow sense of physics etc.) was by no means as *scientific" as it claimed to be.

According to Popper science is about what can be disproven by experiment. Many theories are helpful in understanding experimental and real world phenomena but can't themselves be directly disproven. A fair bit of psychology I have heard and read falls into that camp.

To be fair, most of us too (including myself and probably you too Fred??) accept an awful lot of scientific explanations as intrinsically correct.

Alas you are correct, sceptic though I am with a modicum of scientific knowledge I lack the time and inclination to actually read most research, instead I, like most folk, read reports and claims about that research,

I think it could change things if a definite answer was found.

To be born gay would mean we can really make moves with gay rights... Several countries around the world still give the death sentence for homosexuality. How would you be able to justify death because of how we are born? Also, you could challenge the religious nutjobs... pope included... because if we are born in the image of God and we are born gay... then God wanted us to be that way.. I'm a total athiest btw!

I am afraid I disagree with the first part. Its practically impossible to criminalise feelings/attractions. The death sentence is given for homosexual acts, not feelings. Unless you could prove we are compelled to act in this way and are without free will not to I don't see how proving that we were born gay will change things. I agree that if I was born gay then god, assuming he exists, must have intended that. I don't see however that necessarily follows that he intended for me to fall in love with my boyfriend and sleep together although I admit that it does not sit easily with the concept of an all loving god.

[Lee]

I think it could change things if a definite answer was found.

To be born gay would mean we can really make moves with gay rights... Several countries around the world still give the death sentence for homosexuality. How would you be able to justify death because of how we are born? Also, you could challenge the religious nutjobs... pope included... because if we are born in the image of God and we are born gay... then God wanted us to be that way.. I'm a total athiest btw! lol

To be nurtured as gay means that methods could be adopted to ensure your offspring don't become gay. It would also give much greater acceptance to these "gay therapy" things that try and turn gay people straight.

Personally... I don't think a definite answer could ever be found... I think both cases are true. Some would say I was born into an environment that would give me a higher chance of becoming gay. But since way before I knew about gay/straight, there were things I can look back on about myself (and not my environment) that would provide indicators to my being gay, thus being born gay.

I agree really, it does have the potential to have postive outcomes, but theres also the negatives ones, its quite scary really! i am deffinately with you on the religion part! :biggrin:

Scientifically, they will probably never accept one single theory, especially with it mainly being studied in psychology, they have to give people loads of different theories to write about in exams! (finished my last exam today! yess!!)
The thing stopping them from accepting one theory is it would only ever be correlational, they need to be able to manipulate a factor (the independant variable) and measure the it has (dependant variable). e.g manipulate hormone levels in womb to levels which are correlated with homosexuality. if it was done repeatedly, and consistently got same results they would accept the theory, obviously this wont happen due to ethics, so in realisty we are never going to have one single theory! i have only just realised that! well sorry for the expression, but that pissed on my fire!

[timtravolta]

i mean, how do you turn a guy gay? it is not like you can give him a pill and suddenly he will chase cocks! but i must admit certain experiences that happen at a time of confusion may play a role. mile:

[eastofeden]

I wonder what the responses would be like if you asked the ancient Greeks?

I have always felt the Kinsey Scale was fairly accurate. One of the things I found out early on when I was asked to participate (gay porn/party circuit boys) is that alot of these guys are not actually gay... many have girlfriends and are emotionally and physically attracted to women but they have a narcissistic nature...meaning...they want to "do it" with themselves. It is something that always fascinated me talking with them and getting to know them. There are also predominately straight men who have a need to bond with another male...and so many other variations. I am not sure if "choice" is relevant though because a narcissist must be who he is and if someone has a need to bond...is it a choice?

Sexuality is so complex...probably as complex as each individual. I know I always liked men...my only choice was deciding that I was going to be who I was.

[fredv3b]

Surely, free-will means more than the ability to choose between equally appealing options?

[Lee]

i mean, how do you turn a guy gay? it is not like you can give him a pill and suddenly he will chase cocks! but i must admit certain experiences that happen at a time of confusion may play a role. mile:

I didnt mean turn gay as in literally go to bed one night and wake up the next day gay. i meant are we born as a blank slate, or asexual, and then shaped by our environment to be gay. if only that pill did exist! :biggrin:

Surely, free-will means more than the ability to choose between equally appealing options?

Do we have fee will though? thats another question i hate, it doesnt have a straight answer! we are led to believe we have free will, but do you think we really do?