Nature vs Nurture - Born gay or turned gay?

[princealbertofb]

I think it could change things if a definite answer was found.

To be born gay would mean we can really make moves with gay rights... Several countries around the world still give the death sentence for homosexuality. How would you be able to justify death because of how we are born? Also, you could challenge the religious nutjobs... pope included... because if we are born in the image of God and we are born gay... then God wanted us to be that way.. I'm a total athiest btw! lol

To be nurtured as gay means that methods could be adopted to ensure your offspring don't become gay. It would also give much greater acceptance to these "gay therapy" things that try and turn gay people straight.

Personally... I don't think a definite answer could ever be found... I think both cases are true. Some would say I was born into an environment that would give me a higher chance of becoming gay. But since way before I knew about gay/straight, there were things I can look back on about myself (and not my environment) that would provide indicators to my being gay, thus being born gay.

You can be athier and maybe are the athiest :biggrin: of us all, but it still remains that you are an ATHEIST... as in TOURist, COMMUNist, JOURNAList... (from the Greek: A- [no, deprivative prefix] and Theos [god])
Sorry if this sounds patronising... but Atheist is not a superlative. lol

[princealbertofb]

I would like to comment on that John Barrowman film , you mentioned earlier Marsh , I could only track down episodes one , three and six unfortunately , but I found the whole thing deeply moving and quite emotional at times . I realised exctly what the choices to ignore who i was have done to me . When it showed about life as a gay child , that was exactly how I was . If I had watched this programme maybe 20 years ago I would perhaps have understood who I was more and listened to my inner feelings . To me the argument that being gay is a lifestyle choice is completely blown away, there are changes that happen before we are born that affect are sexual preference . Anyone wondering if they might be gay or struggling to come to terms with their inner self should watch this programme .

I think I may have saved these episodes from YouTube, so I could make them available to you, Gareth. We just need to find a way of uploading them that will be in keeping with your computer style... lol.

[fredv3b]

Do we have fee will though? thats another question i hate, it doesnt have a straight answer! we are led to believe we have free will, but do you think we really do?

It's a very good question. I suppose it depends exactly what we mean by free will. I certainly believe that we are capable of inhibiting our behaviour for moral reasons.

[colinmackay]

You can be athier and maybe are the athiest :biggrin: of us all, but it still remains that you are an ATHEIST... as in TOURist, COMMUNist, JOURNAList... (from the Greek: A- [no, deprivative prefix] and Theos [god])
Sorry if this sounds patronising... but Atheist is not a superlative. lol

Love it! I'm going to have to remember that explanation.

[wouldlikemuscle]

I am afraid I disagree with the first part. Its practically impossible to criminalise feelings/attractions. The death sentence is given for homosexual acts, not feelings. Unless you could prove we are compelled to act in this way and are without free will not to I don't see how proving that we were born gay will change things. I agree that if I was born gay then god, assuming he exists, must have intended that. I don't see however that necessarily follows that he intended for me to fall in love with my boyfriend and sleep together although I admit that it does not sit easily with the concept of an all loving god.

It wouldn't be much of a life though if you could never SHOW your feelings/attractions to the same gender though. I don't just mean sex, surely an intimate kiss between two people of the same gender would be classed as a homosexual act!?
If, in the alleged existance of a God, it expects gay people to be celibate all their lives, then all the more reason for me NOT to believe!! :biggrin:

[fredv3b]

I entirely agree.

[libertylove4]

[COLOR="Navy"]I would have to lean towards born gay on this one as well. I remember being asked by someone if I chose to be gay and I replied, "Yes, I woke up one morning and decided that it was my life's dream to be completely marginalized by society at large and live in a world where at least 10% of the people around me would like to see me dead."

Also on the celibacy thing I have to agree with wouldlikemuscle, part of the reason I'm no longer Roman Catholic is because of the Church policy on celibacy for gays and lesbians. (God loves us so much he wants nothing more that for us to live forever alone and sexless for the good of his kingdom...in that case they can go f*ck themselves). I love men way to much to be celibate.[/COLOR]

[princealbertofb]

I would have to lean towards born gay on this one as well. I remember being asked by someone if I chose to be gay and I replied, "Yes, I woke up one morning and decided that it was my life's dream to be completely marginalized by society at large and live in a world where at least 10% of the people around me would like to see me dead."

Also on the celibacy thing I have to agree with wouldlikemuscle, part of the reason I'm no longer Roman Catholic is because of the Church policy on celibacy for gays and lesbians. (God loves us so much he wants nothing more that for us to live forever alone and sexless for the good of his kingdom...in that case they can go f*ck themselves). I love men way to much to be celibate.

Hehe , LL4, way to go!!!

[peterinmalaga]

I would have to lean towards born gay on this one as well. I remember being asked by someone if I chose to be gay and I replied, "Yes, I woke up one morning and decided that it was my life's dream to be completely marginalized by society at large and live in a world where at least 10% of the people around me would like to see me dead."

Also on the celibacy thing I have to agree with wouldlikemuscle, part of the reason I'm no longer Roman Catholic is because of the Church policy on celibacy for gays and lesbians. (God loves us so much he wants nothing more that for us to live forever alone and sexless for the good of his kingdom...in that case they can go f*ck themselves). I love men way to much to be celibate.

And you describe your mood as "angelic"? I don't think so!
But I agree completely. And if there were a place called heaven, would you want to associate with all the self-righteous arse-holes in there? No way! Give me the sinners any day.

[wouldlikemuscle]

And you describe your mood as "angelic"? I don't think so!
But I agree completely. And if there were a place called heaven, would you want to associate with all the self-righteous arse-holes in there? No way! Give me the sinners any day.

This lot at Pride London yesterday may have something to say about that! (btw, not my photo, but I saw the anti-gay crowd there).