Mormons at it again

[marshlander]

Oh, Packer is a piece of work!! He, along with former LDS President, Spencer Kimball, and current boss, Thomas Monson, blighted my teenage years with their unfounded, bigoted bile. Last weekend, during the church's twice yearly "general conference", which is broadcast all round the world, he apparently told the faithful in reference to glbt people,

“Some suppose that they were pre-set and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember he is our father.”

At a time when people in the US are trying to come to terms with the spate of recent tragic youth suicides his remarks are especially crass. I am delighted to see that his stupid remarks prompted a response from thousands of local lgbt people and supporters who formed a ring that went twice round Temple Square in protest.

Interestingly, the text of his conference talk was altered on the LDS website.

The speech spawned widespread criticism from those who felt Packer’s words suggested that gays can change their orientation. Last night thousands of black-clad protesters surrounded Temple Square in downtown Salt Lake City for a “die in,” expressing their view that Packer’s speech might cause more LDS gays to commit suicide.

The LDS Church has not yet responded to questions about changes in the text of Packer’s sermon.

Mormon apostle's words about gays spark protest | The Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/504404...s.html.csp

You may remember that this is the same part of town where Mormon security guards arrested and handcuffed a young man who kissed his boyfriend on the cheek last year (details here). In case you have forgotten, this is how Mormon security guards treat gays in Salt Lake City.

[Nat3]

As long as they aren't Muslims,I don't take it too "deeply"...I detest Muslim-.- Not all of them, after all there are about 1billion Muslims in this world, some are not as erratic as others=). With the Mormons, I will save them sits in hell, next to me so I can have chats with them for all eternity(I believe they say Homosexuals are going to hell after all...=) some people are blind to what they do not wish to see....

[Sil]

Just to redress the balance a little, I'd just like to say that not all Mormons are active against pursuing homosexuality.

My first boyfriend was raised a Mormon and renounced his beliefs in his late teens, a sensible and self-willed move. His family were not entirely comfortable with us as a couple but they were accepting and shared their home, had dinner with us, made me feel entirely welcome even though they knew I'd pretty much damned their son to hell. In his mum's own words, all they knew was "you make him really happy, I can see it when he's finished on the phone to you" and to a mother and father that was enough.

I just want people to see past this awful extremism above. I also had a mormon friend in college who was a great mate, did brilliant artwork, had a great band called Reptar, reminded me of one of the guys from Weezer; his religion never caused him to judge or discredit anybody, and he was quiet enough in his beliefs that he never intimidated or confused anyone.

things I accept - the book of Mormon is borderline insanity; Jesus did not do a whistle-stop tour of America at any given point, it's physically impossible. Their attitudes towards same-sex couples really do suck in principle, and it's sad to see examples like this when I thought there was more sense. It's part of the reason my first boyfriend renounced his religion.

I don't know what esle to say, just another side to the coin.

[marshlander]

There are gay Muslims as well as gay Mormons. Even if one manages to undo the theological conditioning there are the social and cultural roots that are often so deeply embedded they are not easily dug out. If you have not been brought up in one of these mind-bending cults it is easy not to "take it too deeply". It is a very different matter if you spend the rest of your life trying to get over not just the conditioning, but the anger of having been lied to. Generally I'm pretty-well balanced these days, but Boyd K. Packer makes my blood boil. He wrote the following in a pamphlet that is still current policy in the LDS church. It was first published when I was a teenager and I remember being given copies of it at church.

The Lord specifically forbids certain behaviors, including all sexual relations before marriage, petting, sex perversion (such as homosexuality, rape, and incest), masturbation, or preoccupation with sex in thought, speech, or action (see A Parent's Guide, pp. 36–39).

Homosexual and lesbian activities are sinful and an abomination to the Lord (see Romans 1:26–27, 31). Unnatural affections including those toward persons of the same gender are counter to God's eternal plan for his children. You are responsible to make right choices. Whether directed toward those of the same or opposite gender, lustful feelings and desires may lead to more serious sins. All Latter-day Saints must learn to control and discipline themselves.

I have never met Elder Packer (such a great name for a homophobe, I always thought), but I did have one or two encounters with the former President of the LDS Church, Spencer W. Kimball. It is difficult to emphasise enough just how strongly Mormons "know" the president of the church to be a "true prophet of God". For all intents and purposes he might just as well be God, because every word that comes out of his mouth is treated as literal gospel truth. About sixty years ago Kimball wrote a book called "The Miracle of Forgiveness", which was a text I was expected to read and digest as a fifteen year old enrolled in their "seminary" education programme. It contained such gems as:

Unnatural and Wrong
All such deviations from normal, proper heterosexual relationships are not merely unnatural but wrong in the sight of God. Like adultery, incest, and bestiality they carried the death penalty under the Mosaic law.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. ...
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death. ... (Lev. 20:13, 15-16.)
The law is less severe now, and so regrettably is the community's attitude to these grave sins--another evidence of the deterioration of society.

Sermons (we called them "talks") in church on Sunday often took on this fire and brimstone mentality and it was not unusual to hear homosexuality being lumped in with bestiality, child abuse, rape and occasionally even murder by particularly zealous church leaders as heinous sins. If you are growing up trying to make sense of the world and trying to become a good person you don't escape that kind of conditioning unscathed.

When I was fourteen I was at a conference of maybe a thousand people in London and Kimball (before he became president) was the main speaker. During his delivery he called all the fourteen year-olds present to join him at the pulpit. He spoke to us each in turn and extracted a promise that we would all serve a two-year mission when we reached the age of nineteen. He gave me a ten-shilling note to start my "missionary fund" savings account. Now, 50p might not seem much these days, but in 1969 it was a big deal. I kept that note as a reminder of the promise I had made, knowing that the last thing I ever wanted to do was to serve a mission.

At sixteen, as I've said on here before, I met a girl who became my best friend. When I was nineteen I got married instead knowing that I could not then be sent on a mission. I was also racked with guilt over having succumbed to the kind of hetero-curiosity (a bit of kissing and petting) many of us experience and felt that the honourable thing to do was to marry my girlfriend. The guilt I felt for years at having spent that money on something else and the cowardly way I got out of keeping my promise has long since been replaced by anger that I, and many like me around the world, was placed in the situation of having to make that public commitment in the first place along with the knowledge that I took a crazy way out of confronting my sexuality, which has consequently had such a devastating effect on other people - notably my ex-wife and my children.

Sil, I accept what you say. Most Mormons at grass roots want to be good people and many are very honourable. I heard recently that, for the first time, numbers of members in the LDS church are actually declining. This has been fuelled by a dislike of the political activities the church leadership are dragging the organisation into (such as the Prop 8 scandal). The church notoriously continuously revises its texts without informing its members (very 1984) and the teachings of the church are a little more realistic than they once were. For example, bishops were once told to get gay men married off telling them the love of a good woman would cure them. Nowadays they have to be a little more subtle than that! All that considered, though, breaking away is still very difficult. I am delighted to hear that your ex and his parents managed to put human decency and family love above dogma. That may be a little easier on this side of the Atlantic. One of my sons married in Utah and I was not allowed to attend the ceremony through my "unworthiness".

[Sil]

Sermons (we called them "talks") in church on Sunday often took on this fire and brimstone mentality and it was not unusual to hear homosexuality being lumped in with bestiality, child abuse, rape and occasionally even murder by particularly zealous church leaders as heinous sins. If you are growing up trying to make sense of the world and trying to become a good person you don't escape that kind of conditioning unscathed.


At sixteen, as I've said on here before, I met a girl who became my best friend. When I was nineteen I got married instead knowing that I could not then be sent on a mission. I was also racked with guilt over having succumbed to the kind of hetero-curiosity (a bit of kissing and petting) many of us experience and felt that the honourable thing to do was to marry my girlfriend. The guilt I felt for years at having spent that money on something else and the cowardly way I got out of keeping my promise has long since been replaced by anger that I, and many like me around the world, was placed in the situation of having to make that public commitment in the first place along with the knowledge that I took a crazy way out of confronting my sexuality, which has consequently had such a devastating effect on other people - notably my ex-wife and my children.

Sil, I accept what you say. Most Mormons at grass roots want to be good people and many are very honourable. I heard recently that, for the first time, numbers of members in the LDS church are actually declining. This has been fuelled by a dislike of the political activities the church leadership are dragging the organisation into (such as the Prop 8 scandal). The church notoriously continuously revises its texts without informing its members (very 1984) and the teachings of the church are a little more realistic than they once were. For example, bishops were once told to get gay men married off telling them the love of a good woman would cure them. Nowadays they have to be a little more subtle than that! All that considered, though, breaking away is still very difficult. I am delighted to hear that your ex and his parents managed to put human decency and family love above dogma. That may be a little easier on this side of the Atlantic. One of my sons married in Utah and I was not allowed to attend the ceremony through my "unworthiness".

Eesh, nice to see homosexuality still lumped in with rape, incest and bestiality that most natural of associations.

It's funny because if anything they seemed more extreme in that particular part of the world. It was Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and I'll still never forget seeing a large gaudy wooden crucifix ringed with lightbulbs as we entered into one side of town. Some of his neighbours even had bible quotations on wooden boards outside of their doors, not a huge amount granted...but in England this would be enough to grant you 'crazy' status.

I've never known a country be so similar, yet so different.

Thankfully I avoided a lot of the indoctrination people seem to get at a young age, it always knocks me sick how they "get 'em while they're young" when all of us are at our most imaginative, guilt-ridden, and insecure. What a time to instill the fear of god.

I would never condone any behaviour like this, and I'm glad you've found your own path through all of this. I keep hoping that one day there will be a religion that is at worst indifferent to same-sex relations, but I may have to keep on dreaming.

[marshlander]

... I would never condone any behaviour like this, and I'm glad you've found your own path through all of this.

Thanks. My ire is only really directed at the leaders who continue to take advantage (not to mention the money) and perpetuate the lies along with those of the members who follow without question or thought. That's only nearly all of them then.

Should you ever encounter anyone who is considering signing up I thoroughly recommend my good friend's trilogy as described on his website to counter the rather glib "discussions" they would receive from the boys in dark suits who knock on your door or stop you in the street.

I keep hoping that one day there will be a religion that is at worst indifferent to same-sex relations, but I may have to keep on dreaming.

The Metropolitan Community Church would probably say that one already exists.

[Rychard the Lionheart]

Jesus did not do a whistle-stop tour of America at any given point, it's physically impossible.

Unlikely but not impossible, we now have evidence that the Celts and the Egyptians made have visited the Americas. So he could have but the bible does not mention a book called 'Jesus goes to America'.

Thankfully I avoided a lot of the indoctrination people seem to get at a young age, it always knocks me sick how they "get 'em while they're young" when all of us are at our most imaginative, guilt-ridden, and insecure. What a time to instill the fear of god.

Why do you think we have colleges, schools and universities run by the church, what better way to recruit the next generation of religious fanatics.

These misguided morons really enjoy and abuse their position of power to spread hate, but become angry and hostile when challenged over their own moral standards.

[matty7]

why do these people always spout their beliefs when their always in large groups = get a mob behind them and they think they can dictate - im happy been a sinner but i'd like to have a one on one with them and see how rude they are to my face, i think the out come would be different

Marsh - i remember you once said in a chat or thread that along the lines of its so much easier to come out as gay now than when u were younger.... that is happening now on a global scale too, it is pretty much accepted now amongs the younger generation - these mormans et all are a dying breed clinging on to their outdated rules, the majority will always win in the end and eventually they will fall silent or prob turn their attention to abusing another groups freedoms

[marshlander]

why do these people always spout their beliefs when their always in large groups = get a mob behind them and they think they can dictate

To be honest I am not sure that would make much difference. Mormons are taught from the cradle to "Choose The Right" and standing up for their principles and "standards" comes into that. Kids are encouraged to stand up and "bear their testimonies" in front of the whole congregation and that self-hypnosis continues throughout life. Some people are more articulate than others, but they will still have the same glaze in the eye when the thinking switches off and the indoctrination kicks in.

Marsh - i remember you once said in a chat or thread that along the lines of its so much easier to come out as gay now than when u were younger.... that is happening now on a global scale too, it is pretty much accepted now amongs the younger generation - these mormans et all are a dying breed clinging on to their outdated rules, the majority will always win in the end and eventually they will fall silent or prob turn their attention to abusing another groups freedoms

It's a classic case of the bullies screaming the loudest (anyone hear the Pope recently?). They are immensely proud of their pioneer past and no one can doubt the determination, ingenuity and industry required to build their cities out of swamps and, particularly, deserts. They set great store by being a people that has developed into a mighty force for good despite years of persecution by the gentiles that surrounded them in the nineteenth century. They have rewritten history, though, to miss out the bits where the founder, Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist who spent much of his time thinking up his next scheme for parting his neighbours from their money. Ask a Mormon how many wives "the prophet" had and they won't have a clue (one legally and thirty-three others as it happens). Nor will they know how he acquired them. They will not be aware that polygamy was actually illegal at the time it was common practice or that Smith sent men away on "missions" and "married" their wives in their absence, much to the disgust of his only legal wife, Emma. Such a charmer was he that many of these women's journals and letters tell of him saying that there was a spiritual sword hanging over his head which was ready to strike him dead if they turned down his advances. They talk about Smith's death as a martyrdom, but historical record (which Mormons are discouraged from reading on pain of excommunication) suggests that the mob that attacked the prison in Carthage in which he was being held prisoner consisted in large part of people who had lost all their savings in the collapse of an illegal bank Smith had set up.

Yes, the trek across the plains was an incredible undertaking, but one that resulted in devastating loss of life. A living God with a living prophet as his spokesman would never have allowed people to undertake some of the most hazardous parts of that journey in the floods of winter. You'll see a few puzzled looks if you mention "Mountain Meadows" to them too. More up to date, before gay-bashing became their political cause of choice they denied men of African ancestry access to their priesthood (women have never been considered in the running). God (eternal and unchangeable as he is) decided in 1978 that "every worthy male can hold the priesthood" as revealed to the then prophet and president, Spencer W. Kimball. It was probably coincidental that the church was going to face the prospect of crippling financial penalties for breaking equality laws ... Their next political target was women, again when faced with pro-choice and equality legislation, but again the tide was against them and they lost that call. Naturally, we are much tinier proportion of the population, so until there is binding legislation concerning equality for lgbt people we are a pretty good target.

Considering the way in which the church is embedded in Utahn life I don't see it falling any time soon. Try getting a job if you don't have a "temple recommend" to flash your prospective employer. In the meantime suicide and homelessness are too common a consequence of being gay among good Latter-day Saints.

[eastofeden]

I am still recovering from a series of huge fights I had with Mormons on Prop 8...I had 15-20 of them on me at once and they tired me out so I will say this one thing in conclusion...

This is a religion who forbade black people from becoming members...and they actually think they have ANYTHING to do with God? At one time they must have believed black people were inferior beings or not human at all in order to have this rule so why would anyone pay attention to anything they have to say much less become a member of such an organization?

I challenge the Mormons who approach me all the time. I figure if they feel free to approach me with their propaganda...I should return the favor with a thoughtful question at the very least