Gay History, One Man's Memory

[Dat]

I don't have enough posts to PM, but James, or anyone else for that matter. Feel free to share it where you find it appropriate.

[fredv3b]

Thanks for your reply.

I personally think principle goes right along with the rights. I don't see how you can have one without the other. If you just take the rights (some) you're settling. That's not for me.

It depends what you mean by settling. If you mean accepting some rights and agreeing not to campaign for full equality, then in theory I agree but in practice such a bargain is unenforceable. If you mean accepting some rights, saying thank you and restarting campaigning next week, then my point remains.

I don't know how things are in other countries (outside of Canada), but here if you have a civil union (only offered in a few states) or a domestic partnership you still have over 1,000 less rights than marriage gives you.

The figure of over a thousand rights and benefits, refers to Federal rights and benefits. Married same-sex couples in Iowa, etc. do not have access to them. Part of DOMA would need to be repealed or ruled unconstitutional by the courts.

[Dat]

It depends what you mean by settling. If you mean accepting some rights and agreeing not to campaign for full equality, then in theory I agree but in practice such a bargain is unenforceable. If you mean accepting some rights, saying thank you and restarting campaigning next week, then my point remains.

But you see, that is what has been going on since the beginning of time. Accepting anything outside of equal rights is settling. It doesn't matter how you package it, it's still settling. There are people who think as you stated and I honestly don't have a good argument. Take what you can get now and worry about getting more tomorrow. That just doesn't sit well with me. I shouldn't have to take what you are willing to offer me. Nor should I have to accept what you want to take away from me. We are either all equal or we're not.

I think the point I was trying to make is by accepting what they choose to give just continues the discrimination. I'm not sure how else to say it. There was a time when the heterosexual community had rights A-Z. The homosexual community didn't even have A. Now they want to give us A-F. That isn't anywhere close to equal.

I'm old school. I don't want you to 'allow' me to have A-F. Give me A-Z or keep it. You don't get to decide how 'equal' I am.

I should not have to 'ask' for what every heterosexual in this country has. Why should I be grateful for table scraps? Is it because I'm holding out hope that someday, if I'm good and wag my tail just right I'll actually get to sit at the table?

I did not work 25 or 30 years to receive table scraps. Yeah, I was quite the activist in my younger years and not once did I or anyone I networked with say "Please sir, may I have some more?"

I guess the reason I see it differently than some is this. We were never offered anything in years past. It was a resounding no. Now it just feels like selling out. To me. It feels like they want to offer us small tokens in the hope that we'll shut up and go away. Then when we actually do quiet down, they snatch their tokens away and we begin the dance again.

We simply become complacent and forget what the true meaning of equality is. If not forget, we try to give new meaning to the word equality.

Here's the problem as I see it. My reality. When they give you A-F, they tend to turn around a year or two later and take A-F away. Or maybe they'll just take D-F this year and allow you to keep A-C. It happens all the time all across this country. The reason is simple. We settle and we become complacent.

All you need do is watch what goes up at the ballot box to see the true irony of their homophobia. Do you know that in some states two people who are not related can't even buy a house or a business together? Brand new initiatives that were simply meant to prevent gay marriage. Unfortunately, what the straight people who voted for this legislation didn't realize is that straight people who choose not to marry have unfortunately fallen victim to the very legislation they voted for. Gotta read that fine print.

I also think some don't realize how quickly things begin to slide backwards when we're not paying attention. When you are willing to accept a little, it's really not too hard to see years of hard work slip away.

Take a look at VA. Remember how the governors first act after being elected in 2008 was to remove sexual orientation from the states anti-discrimination law? The law that made it illegal for companies to discriminate based on sexual orientation. The law that made it illegal to discriminate against sexual orientation when renting or selling your home. Companies are now free to discriminate based on sexual orientation; People are now free to refuse renting or selling of a home to gays. It is once again legal to discriminate against gays in VA. The governor did this via executive order on the 2nd or 3rd day of his term.

And let's not forget about his Lt. Governor who sent college campuses a letter stating it was against state law for them to include sexual orientation in their discrimination policies and any reference to sexual orientation had to be removed.

Thankfully the young people in VA went nuts. There were marches, rallies, protests all over VA. Gay and straight alike. After all the protests the Lt. Governor did send another memo stating that it was against state law, but it was just a 'suggestion' that they remove that protection. They were free to keep the protection for gays and lesbians if they chose.

That is what I'm talking about. If you accept what they are willing to 'give' you, then don't be surprised when they turn around and take that 'gift' away. VA is not the only state to move backwards on gay legislation. I have other examples if you'd like. VA is just the most glaring. Others are a little more subtle, but moving backwards they are.

The figure of over a thousand rights and benefits, refers to Federal rights and benefits. Married same-sex couples in Iowa, etc. do not have access to them. Part of DOMA would need to be repealed or ruled unconstitutional by the courts.

It also refers to states rights as well IF we're talking about civil unions or domestic partnerships. The number of rights you won't receive with a civil union or domestic partnership varies from state to state. The low ball number is 1,049 and the high ball number is 1,400.

DOMA will be found unconstitutional at some point if it isn't repealed before it hits SCOTUS. DOMA only affects marriage. It has nothing to do with states that only offer civil unions or domestic partnerships.

Here are a few of the rights civil union or domestic partnership do not provide you.

1. Joint parental rights of children
2. Joint adoption
3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6. Crime victims recovery benefits
7. Domestic violence protection orders
8. Judicial protections and immunity
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans

I've been trying to find a complete list but I haven't been able to find one yet. I'll keep looking. I had it bookmarked at one time, must have deleted it.

[fredv3b]

Thanks for your reply.

But you see, that is what has been going on since the beginning of time.

Absolutely, which is why I am sure it won't change.

Accepting anything outside of equal rights is settling. It doesn't matter how you package it, it's still settling. There are people who think as you stated and I honestly don't have a good argument. Take what you can get now and worry about getting more tomorrow. That just doesn't sit well with me. I shouldn't have to take what you are willing to offer me. Nor should I have to accept what you want to take away from me. We are either all equal or we're not.

So you accept that you care more about the principle of equality than practical legal rights. That is a perfectly reasonable position, but not all of us share it.

I think the point I was trying to make is by accepting what they choose to give just continues the discrimination. I'm not sure how else to say it. There was a time when the heterosexual community had rights A-Z. The homosexual community didn't even have A. Now they want to give us A-F. That isn't anywhere close to equal.

I'm old school. I don't want you to 'allow' me to have A-F. Give me A-Z or keep it. You don't get to decide how 'equal' I am.

Who does get to decide?

This is not an ideal world, an anyone who thinks it ever will be is, in my opinion, a fool.

If the choice is between table scraps and nothing, I'll take the table scraps.

Your example, from VA, shows how fickle executive orders are.

Short of SCOTUS, ruling that the Constitution mandates same-sex marriage, gay workplace protections, etc., etc. I don't think you are going to be happy. If I was an American, until and unless that happens I would play the dirty game that is politics.

[East]

I'm old school. I don't want you to 'allow' me to have A-F. Give me A-Z or keep it. You don't get to decide how 'equal' I am.

I should not have to 'ask' for what every heterosexual in this country has. Why should I be grateful for table scraps? Is it because I'm holding out hope that someday, if I'm good and wag my tail just right I'll actually get to sit at the table?

AMEN brother! Thank you for saying that.

[marshlander]

Yes, I perfectly understand Fred's pragmatism, but my heart is with Dat and East on this. The dirty political game relies on hoping that people will realise that small changes in introducing equality will not usher in the end of the world and that we eventually get what we hope for by stealth. To some extent that is where we are in the UK. Some politicians, who would not have contemplated it in the past, are now talking about marriage equality. Tensions in the search for equality have been present throughout modern history and, for example, the conflicts between the Mattachine Society and the Gay Liberation Front come to mind.

I wonder if it is the simultaneous application of both kinds of pressure that get results?

[fredv3b]

I wonder if it is the simultaneous application of both kinds of pressure that get results?

I totally agree. Having a hardcore wing of our own (that everyone knows we pragmatists have to bring along with us) puts us in a much stronger bargaining position. I am completely convinced that in the absence of rule by lawyers (read SCOTUS issue a ruling far in advance of general opinion in the US) that progress will be made in small pragmatic steps.

[charley]

The existence of debate on this shows what third class citizens we still are. Let's all thank the benevolent oppressor.

Thank God someone is writing all this down.

[princealbertofb]

Here's a man who co-founded Act-Up Paris with my brother and who also HIVpositive is still alive and kicking, and still pretty angry, so I believe...
You can read up on his site. Some of his work, as a journalist is in English.
The Butt interview that never was - Didier Lestrade

[Dat]

Thanks for your reply.Absolutely, which is why I am sure it won't change.

It will change IF people stop settling and letting others tell them what they can/can't have. The deal breaking/compromising will have to stop.

So you accept that you care more about the principle of equality than practical legal rights. That is a perfectly reasonable position, but not all of us share it.

I believe I admitted as much. Did you happen to read my post? I stated that some people believe differently than I do, differently than my generation does and there really isn't an argument that I can make. Some rights are better than none. Some of us just don't buy into that. Some do, some don't. To each his own.

Who does get to decide?

I'll tell you who doesn't get to decide. The ballot box. This issue will not be settled until it goes to SCOTUS. Than it will be settled once and for all. People in my community, even some people of my generation say this is not the time for civil rights to go to SCOTUS. The court is to conservative. I say anytime is the right time. Any court, conservative or liberal would have to rule that the majority do not get to make the rules for the minority. It's part of the constitution FFS. There is also no basis found in the constitution to prevent gay marriage. If anything, the constitution supports it based on marriage amendments that were passed back in the 60s regarding interracial marriage. Yeah, I remember that fight too. LOL

This is not an ideal world, an anyone who thinks it ever will be is, in my opinion, a fool.

I don't believe anyone stated this was an ideal world or that it ever would be. The fools, as I see them, are the ones who are willing to settle for table scraps with one hand while tossing their civil rights away with the other.

Do you think when we demanded the right to live where we wanted to and not be beaten or have our houses burnt down that we 'settled' for just certain neighborhoods? No. It was let us live in peace anywhere we damn well choose. There was no compromising.

I can go on and on and on with the struggles and how settling was NEVER on the table.
Settling is on the table now. I believe the reason is because young people do not know their history. They don't know the sacrifices that were made. They don't know that the previous generation refused to settle and that we see that willingness to settle as a slap in the face to everyone who fought so hard to get YOU the little bit you have now.

If the choice is between table scraps and nothing, I'll take the table scraps.

And you're welcome to those scraps. Enjoy.

Your example, from VA, shows how fickle executive orders are.

What it shows is that when you settle for scraps those scraps can be taken away with the stroke of a pen. By any state. Or maybe use the ballot box and let the Mormons fund millions of dollars into removing those scraps.

Those are the two options for removing rights. Until we have full equality across the entire country you run the risk of having your table scraps taken away because you settled.

Short of SCOTUS, ruling that the Constitution mandates same-sex marriage, gay workplace protections, etc., etc. I don't think you are going to be happy. If I was an American, until and unless that happens I would play the dirty game that is politics.

And just what do you think we have been doing? To imply we are not involved in politics is not only offensive, but shows how very little you know about gays in this country. But that's okay. You don't live here, you don't live it, so why would you even want to know?

In every single state where our rights are put on the ballot we are out there, holding fund raisers for candidates. Going door to door. Airing TV commercials. We bus ourselves to other states trying to do what we can. Trying to make sure the candidates who actually realize we are no different than anyone else have some chance of being elected.

Every single time a state tries to take rights away, we're out there. We buss ourselves in. Doing the same thing. Fund raising, door knocking, donating our own money. Why? Because we are now trying to protect the table scraps. Those scraps that can so easily be taken away by your own admission.

As another example for you. I'm from the great state of Ohio. Well it used to be a great state. From Columbus. Did you know that Columbus was rated the number 2 place in the country to live if you were gay? Only San Francisco was rated higher. We had our civil unions. We had our domestic partnerships. We had the ability to pay thousands of dollars to protect our families IF we had the money. And a lot of us did. One thing that does ring true is that gays have more discretionary spending available to them.

But what about that great city of Columbus now? It's all gone. One day at the voting booth moved Columbus from #2 in the country to, well, they're no longer even on the list.

That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. If you settle for A, then you don't get to bitch when they take A away.

As far as SCOTUS goes, I think I've already stated equality for gay men and lesbian women will only be done through SCOTUS. We have tried many times to get it to SCOTUS and have failed each time. The latest was Prop 8 in California. That was really going to make it. Both sides said they would appeal to SCOTUS. Then the other side played some tricks and arranged things so that it will not make it to SCOTUS. The other side knows. When it hits SCOTUS, it's over. It's a done deal.

It just saddens me when young people make statements such as yours. We'll take what they give us this week and continue to fight for more. That's a great argument. It just doesn't work in reality. Take what they offer today, and they'll take it away tomorrow. That IS the history once people began to settle.

I am a very principled person. People can only treat you the way you allow them to treat you. I have seen too much. I have been through too much. I remember. I saw. I lived it.
No one gets to treat me like a 2nd class citizen with my approval. I refuse to give that approval.

This new movement, and I do call it a new movement, is able to settle. They are able to accept scraps. They simply have no idea what was done to get to this point. Now it's a big party. Which is great, I'm all for celebrating. But it's not a party. There is still much work that needs to be done.

The question I ask myself is simple. Who is going to finish this? My generation will be gone in the not too distant future. There will be few left who will refuse to sacrifice their principles. There will be few left who will refuse to settle for scraps.

So much of our time, money, and energy is wasted today trying to protect the scraps that we were given. Much better use could be made of that time, money, and energy if people actually had a few principles and refused to settle.

It's the old adage, once you have something you don't want to see it taken away. So you fight for it. And you normally lose the battle anyway. And now the problem becomes that you spent so much time, energy and money trying to save the table scraps that there is little or nothing left to fight for true equality. That is the true damage of settling. And you don't think our opponents know that? It's right out of their playbook. Give them A, try and take A away. That will stop the progress for true equality. Right out of the playbook.

Play 2 is even more obvious and simple. Get gay men and lesbian women to fight amongst themselves. Some like yourself say, we should take what they offer. Others say all or nothing I find it amazing how great those two plays have worked for our opponents.

I fault no one for settling and I understand the argument. The argument is more than valid and I could get behind that argument when it comes to anything else. Just not my civil rights. I wish I could make an argument that you could understand. I don't have that argument and words fail. I think you would need to have lived through what we did. Fought the fights we did. Maybe have a few bricks and rocks thrown at you as you march for your civil rights. I understand and have seen first hand the damage settling does and why I believe it should never be an option.

I think you would have to see how the movement has changed. It really isn't about civil rights anymore. There are no more marches for those civil rights. Those marches have been replaced with parades and floats, and yes, even settling.

I will say this one last thing in an attempt to get you to understand. If us old codgers had settled, your life would not be what it is today. You would still be beaten daily. You would still be refused housing. You would still be considered mentally deficient. You would not be able to adopt. And the list goes on. With every single one of those issues settling was not an option. Why should gay marriage be treated differently?

Speaking of adoption that's another great example of what settling got us. There was a time when a gay person could not adopt anywhere in this country. That has changed. Slowly, but it has changed. The states that refused to settle for foster parenting now have full adoption rights. All or nothing. The states where gays settled and accepted the scraps (foster parenting only) still can't adopt. They can be a foster parent/family with a child for 5, 10 years but they will never be able to adopt that child. They can also have that child pulled from their home on a whim. A child you have loved and cared for. Just removed. No reason. It's just time. Children destroyed because they are taken away from the only parents they have ever known. Not to mention what it does to those parents. THAT is what settling gets you. Pain and heartbreak.