Oh, Fred, I am sorry. I did not intend to imply that you are stupid. I am sorry if that is the way you perceived it. I don't believe that you are at all. I just wondered why you would ask for a justification when the reason was evident in itself. The reason makes the justification no more than a lie or a shallow coverup.
"One does not use popular support as a justification here either". What can I say. Understanding something literaly vs. figurative is always a messy business. I guess it all depends on if you ignore the word either in the statement. I was saying, as in Britain, it was a bit of a no no, not that it doesn't happen. As in, "One does not do . . . in polite society". Since you already established that it happens in Britain but it was frowned upon, I figured that you would reach my intended conclusion with the use of either. Sorry, I should have been more clear.
In addition, you have to realize (as I realize with others on this forum) I am actually working things out while I am making my arguments. I have seen you do it too Fred, and frankly, I see no problem in either of us allowing our argument to evolve. It is how we learn after all.
Anyway, I'm sorry for the bullying. Though, I was certainly not the only one to engage in it. I just like a good verbal combat when I can get one. Sad to lose a sparing partner over something as simple as misunderstanding. Tata, Fred.
Pip, it's not an excuse. It is an attempt to underline certain cultural differences between Britain and America . . . and I guess Canada as well. Simply put, the British and American cultures diverged long before the governments did. American colonists were accustomed to far more freedom than the people of the British Isles were by the time of the American Revolution. Furthermore, the cultures are still very divergent. The liberties of the colonists spauned multiple new religions and perspectives, religions which are still in prominence and religions which are responsible for the establishment of the Freedom of Religion, the 13th and 14th amendments, and the Civil Rights Movement. Consequently, they are also responsible for the fact that America is far more religious than most western nations and is also the most religiously diverse nation in the world. Given these things: a history of positive religious contribution, a long and deep tradition of religious freedom, and a less homogenized system of moral beliefs, there is good reason why such arguments take longer in the United States. And frankly, as apposed to compromising an established freedom in the name of securing GLBT liberties. as some other countries have done, I don't mind spending a bit of time to ensure both are secured properly. Sorry, I guess I'm just a bit leery of tossing the baby out with the bath water.
jbrowder24 Wrote:Winteris, I think part of the problem is how we get our "news" has once again evolved. Early on, lots of press supporting a publisher's view, but laws were passed to keep things more fair (no more 'muckraking'). And so say during the civil rights movement, aside from town gossip, news was received from pretty legit TV programs, radio shows and newspapers. But since then, talk radio with personalities like Limbaugh came to be as did FOX News with a lot of commentators - commentators people take as news even when they are giving opinion. Combine this with the Internet and people believing e-mails sent to them as 'news' even when it's not, spread even more now by social media.
So yes, I think we appeal to the people of the United States... but when they're listening to Glenn Beck for their news (thank goodness he's leaving FN though I worry about people following him wherever he goes next) .... well I just begin to lose a little faith in it sometimes. What really gets to me is the radio ads NOM had in this state about the judges before the last election... had the judges here not been voted out, I'd probably be more inclined to agree with you. Since they were and I saw how money (I didn't hear pro-judge ads, just a ton of anti-liberal anti-gay ads) played a part here, I just don't know what to think. I don't disagree with you, I just have my concerns which perhaps I worded too strongly before but I don't want the trend of attacking judges, etc., to be taken too lightly either.
I understand what your concern is. It has been the concern since the American Republic was founded, and it was not just the concern of those in the United States. Many British and French thinkers spoke about the problems that can occur when relying on popular opinion. John Adams, seeing some of the violence of mob rule leading up to the Revolution, had great concerns over the matter. Which is why he became such a strong Federalist.
And, again, I agree with you about the role of the media. Unfortunately, the freedoms of the press and of speech are not always the most comfortable of freedoms. And I have no better wisdom to give you on the matter than to have faith that people will eventually come around to the side of reason. That faith has not served us ill thus far. Though, that insecurity is also the reason why it is so incumbent upon us all to make these arguments to the best of our abilities.
Back to the topic at hand, President Obama and his reelection in 2012.
Yesterday I found out something terribly disturbing. While on his European tour, President Obama signed The (un)Patriot Act back into law, continuing the infringement on 4th amendment rights established by the Bush administration.
Here is Rand Paul talking about the topic. (I never thought I would agree with Rand Paul on a topic over President Obama)
For Gay Americans especially there are many reasons why Obama should win and hopefully will win.
A number of bills were passed and signed into law that directly effect GLBT Americans. These are a few that I came up with:
1) Visitation Rights = Patients at nearly every hospital in the country will now be allowed to decide who has visitation rights and who can make medical decisions on their behalf -- regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity or family makeup -- under new federal regulations that took effect Tuesday.
2) Repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell = Repeal of the ban on gay men and women who serve in the armed forces which had resulted in the loss of thousands of able male and female translators, medics and soldiers.
3) Public Condemnation of Defense of Marriage Act = The president issued a proclamation that his administration will no longer defend the Defense of Marriage Act in a court of law. He also went further to say that the law was unconstitutional.
4) Medal of Freedom Award= The brother of Harvey Milk accepted the Medal of Freedom Award honored by President Obama for Harvey Milk's courageous efforts.
There is more you just have to research it....But basically he has been slowly breaking down the stereotypes and has been working hard to bring GLBT issues to the forefront. America is pretty conservative when it comes to sexuality and what he has done so far is comparable to a milestone for us. And I truly admire him.
Barack Obamas standing with gays
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