Why does L come first in LGBTIQ

[fredv3b]

because both groups are discriminated and are socially associated

There are many groups that are discriminated against. To be honest, I don't feel socially associated with transsexuals.

You are not classed together with transgender or anyone. It is simply that we form a community of people who do not the privilege that heterosexual have.

What privilege is it that heterosexuals have that the transgendered want? While they certainly want not to be discriminated against, that also applies to many other groups, whose membership includes heterosexuals.

[OrphanPip]

First of all, not all transgenders are transsexuals.

Secondly, transgender identity overlaps and effects sexual orientation. They are not heteronormative, they are outside the bounds of what the general populace considers to be heterosexual behavior.

Thirdly, transgenders have historically always been a part of the gay community, before they were able to fully express that they had a divergent gender identity, many of them were recognized as simply being effeminate gay men and butch lesbians. Leslie Feinberg's novel Stone Butch Blues goes into detail about the struggles transgenders faced both in the gay community of the 70s and outside of it. Before they had a notion of being transgender people didn't seem to have a problem as just seeing them as a subset of gays and lesbians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Rivera

Transgender activist have also played major roles in gay rights activism. It is undeniable that they are effected by many of the same issues as the gay community.

Fourth, transgender concerns for freedom to have their relationships recognized as valid has direct overlap with the concerns of gays and lesbians. Their concerns to express divergent gender identities without discrimination has direct overlap with the concerns of gays and lesbians. Gay men are often stigmatized for being effeminate, and lesbian women for being masculine. Transgenders deal with the same essentialist bigoted notions of gender as gays and lesbians. Moreover, specific elements of gay culture, such as drag, have direct connections to the transgender movement.

Fifth, transgender cultural outlets are within the gay community and have always been, so they are associated with us culturally.

Sixth, transphobia comes out of the same nonsensical fear of difference as homophobia.

[fredv3b]

Pip,

Thanks for the reply. Some very good points.

First of all, not all transgenders are transsexuals.

In which case would you be so kind as to explain to me what exactly each term means, I thought they were synonymous.

[OrphanPip]

In which case would you be so kind as to explain to me what exactly each term means, I thought they were synonymous.

A transsexual is someone whose gender identity is opposite that of their biological gender. Transgenderism is a broader term that encompasses all forms of atypical gender identity. Transgender is a term that includes cross-dressing and gender bending behavior, as well as people who feel that they can not identify with their biological gender, but at the same time do not identify with the other end of the typical binary. Cross-dressing is a sort of transgender behavior, while not all cross-dressers are transsexuals since they don't necessarily see themselves essentially as a woman, instead they enjoy being a woman at times.

[stephanie stephens]

I would like to add one more thing to this topic. There are political reasons to group together as in making a larger voting group. As you all know each segment of the LGBT group has been the victim of ridicule or hate crimes. In answer to the original posters question, I think the L comes first because of the tradition "ladies first". I recall in the past seeing it written GLBT.

[fredv3b]

I would like to add one more thing to this topic. There are political reasons to group together as in making a larger voting group.

I can see the advantage for the transgendered in allying themselves with a larger and more powerful group. From a strictly selfish point of view I do not see the advantage for gays and lesbians in allying ourselves with a less powerful and less popular group.

[Wintereis]

Why is L first? Well, it is lesbian feminism as was pointed out, and thought i am not a great fan of that particular mold of feminism, I do think that they have an excellent point behind why they think L should come first. It is because, in social media and research, gay men are more often the subject of discourse. The place you can really see that is in academic research where the number of studies and publications on gay men rather grossly outnumber the studies on lesbians.

However, having said this, bisexuals and transsexuals have even less independent media coverage and studies.

Fred, having many good friends who are trans, most fully transitioned, I really cannot relate to your understanding of gay issues being unrelated to trans issues. Both groups are sexual minorities. To me, it seems that such divisions are made because people misunderstand the inextricable link that exists between sex, sexuality, and gender.

This is a friend of mine.




I met Ryan in a University lecture on Human Sexuality, which took biology, psychology, sociology, and other such aspects of human sexuality into consideration. At the time of the class, Ryan had not yet transitioned nor had he come to terms with the fact that he was trans. He is smart, (he has a masters degree) he is perfectly healthy in body and mind, and I can tell you that without question. I have sat in his backyard, enjoying a barbeque on the 4th of July. I have been to his birthday parties, his partners birthday parties, and he is very much a part of the gay community.

[fredv3b]

I do think that they have an excellent point behind why they think L should come first. It is because, in social media and research, gay men are more often the subject of discourse.

Whilst they are perfectly current that gay men are far more often the subject of discourse, they are naive in the extreme if they think rearranging an acronym will change that.

Fred, having many good friends who are trans, most fully transitioned, I really cannot relate to your understanding of gay issues being unrelated to trans issues.

I never claimed that they were unrelated, they perfectly obviously are. I do however see gay and trans issues as not being the same.

[zeon]

To be honest its just a label... It means sod all to me because i refuse to be labelled... I may be bent but i can live with that... One thing i cant live with is a label so i just like to call myself..... Unique

Kindest regards

zeon

*paints nails*

[Wintereis]

WOW, aren't you argumentative Fred!

I never said it would make a direct difference what order the letters came in. Frankly, I don't think it matters really.

In what way are gay and trans issues not the same, Fred? Both are minorities due to sexual differences from dominant society. Both claim and have evidence that there is a biological as well as social difference which sets them apart from dominant society's sexual "norms". Both face discrimination. Both have major legal impediments. Both groups are seen as deviant, perverse, and/or freaks by dominant society. I don't see that there is much difference. I think that there is probably more difference between the G and the I in LGBTQI than there is between the G and the T as far as issues are concerned,