my rebutle to the comment about how our species is not hardwired to be monogomous as well as 75% of the other mamals is that we (supposedly) have a higher cognitive function.
we no longer have to mate w/ as many individuals to ensure the survival of our race. We as a species have developed technology to handle medical problems. The weak no longer die off. genetic disorders are spreading due to irresponsible reproduction (from a genetic stance). The weaker individuals w/ chronic genetic diseases live longer now and capable of reproducing and producing offspring that may have the disease or be carriers of it.
In my opinion we are no longer controlled by nature and capable of deciding what we think is right and wrong. For me and my partner, there is nothing but monogomy. For others it's fine with them, but to me the excuse that it's not natural is weak sauce. Own up to your own ethical or moral opinions and don't try and blame it on something you don't "control"
PS this is not targeted to any individual here, it's just the "it's not natural" excuse gets thrown around a lot and I actually had this discussion w/ another individual in person and his only reasoning was that it's not natural.... nothing of substance behind that comment, it seemed more like an excuse to sleep around. If you as an individual are fine w/ it and own up to it as being your opinon, good for you. I ahve respect for those, but I'll never understand or participate in those practices
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Never is a long time. But that's a road everyone has to walk themselves, or not.
The problem with your position is that you've decided that the "moral" option is the correct one. You are of c ourse correct. We are higher on the food chain and can make cognizant decisions. It's the suposition that monogamy, even though we are not hard wired for it, is the correct decision.
I would counter and say if it's monogamy you want, contrary to our natural inclinations, fine. Just because we can choose a thing doesn't make it right. I would ask, why the fight? You eat when you are hungry, sleep when sleepy, listen to music when you seek that particular pleasure.....why then should we fight our natural instincts for sexual pleasure? Because certain people have decided that is the moral way for themselves and therefore we must fight it.
Just because we can doesn't mean we must. Just that it is one possibility among many. That is what destinguishes us. The ability...not the choice. So it has nothing to do with owning up...by why you (just as an example) seem to demand a reason for something that is (seems to be) natural to the species.
One could ask why you take such a natural human function and turn it into something almost....impossible to manage and in almost every case doomed to failure? Everyone is free to choose their own way, but it amazes me, with years of hindsight, maturity and experience, that we have turned this whole thing on it's head (sex) with so many rules and near impossible restrictions that it has become almost impossible to keep a long term relationship.
Oddly enough, I was watching a program yesterday on paternity cases. The new statistics, made possible because of DNA testing, is that GET READY FOR IT......1 in 3 children do not belong to the father the mother claims them to be. 1 out of every 3!!!!
Now I will agree that this is the worst, most hurtful thing that could probably happen to someone. But it just goes to show what our natural inclinations can have us do, even to the best of us.
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Just wanted to ad (I do this a lot..)
That it is strange that the one thing we find the most difficult to do, is the one thing we have decided is the test for what a relationship is or means. Kill someone? I'll stand by your side and be there every day in court. Beat me till I'm half dead? NO problem. Steal my money, bankrupt my mother...but you don't know him like I do......
But have meaningless sex with someone you'll never see again and it's good bye baby. Especially when over the years, like it or not, our sexual desire for our partners decline even while our intimacy increses. Perhaps it's the repetition or knowing each others bodies so well, or just loss of that "spark" that creates desire when our lives become so well known. But I find that unless I'm (personaly) really horny, what I find far more intimate, years down the round, is laying there watching tv and just being close to each other. An intimacy that comes from within, without sexual stimulation. This is an intimacy and love that grows even as the physical desire slows.
As someone mentioned before, this whole idea for excludes the conept of someone having an actual affair. Once, maybe twice I'll tolerate. Any more means there is more to the relationship and that incringes on the totality of what is "us" and would never be tolerated.
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I guess the issue for me would not be that he'd slept with somebody else, it would be WHY.
If he went with somebody else my initial thoughts would be that it was because there was something lacking in OUR relationship - something which meant it either wasn't special enough to him to warrant his respecting it and respecting ME by being faithful TO me, or that he was looking for an out (which, even if he wasn't looking for an out to the RELATIONSHIP, he was insofar as the physical side was concerned).
Depending on how we'd approached it from the start, if he was drunk and horny then I could overlook it (with a chiding), but if it became a trend then that would be it - definitely no way of going back since, as you've said yourself, it would definitely suggest that there was more to it than a one-off thing.
I am, however, a pragmatist at heart, and I acknowledge that the desire for sexual encounters on a number of levels is strong in us as a species, perhaps moreso in males than females. Whilst I am a firm believer in monogamy, I myself have observed and respect the natural desire of us as human beings to find things attractive ... I cannot weld my eyes shut simply because I'm with somebody - all I can do is what I have said I would, which is to observe that there IS a line, and that if I want my existing relationship to continue as is, then I need to respect it ... which, for me, has never been a problem.
So for my part I'm not at all confused on the issue - I'm just on the fence somewhat, which is why I'm happy sticking with my original prognosis on the matter, which is that it's for the parties to decide how they want the mechanics of their relationship to work, with this being one of the considerations ...
I still think you should have your own day-time talkshow babe  .
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
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Hee hee,
I agree, with your view, perhaps NOT the talk show. I believe however two people create a contract between them, the rules should be their own, not down to the dictates of "should be" based on some communal concept of how we should all behave. (Especially when we say one thing and most go off and do another...)
As you and I have gone through this discussion before, it's a bit like telling people "at your age...." because it sounds so condescending, even though it is also usually true. But, having been where a lot of you are now, and having lots of friends who have also been where you are and have "lived to tell the tale" together, I also know that what we ALL believed and wished and made rules about then, have changed bit by bit over the years along with the relationship itself.
It's all so hypothetical. Like if I was ever under torture or what I would do if a loved one was threatened or whatever...... I would never had thought 20 years ago I could ever think as I do now. I would have told you it could never, ever happen. Do you remember on the boards a few years ago I had this fight with a member who swore up and down it could never, ever happen, fought for weeks about it.....blah blah...two months later he cheated on his boy friend. Never thought he could, couldn't believed he had.....
Never is a long time. What we believe today may be, like everything else in life, different tomorrow. I just hate to see people lay so much on this one single issue when everything else fits. No relationship should fold on any one single issue unless they turn out to be an ax murderer or something.
I personally believe the whole thing is about keeping people together. Until we know each other and trust each other unreservedly, passion is very often the mold that holds us togehter. As the years go by, they strength of these two things switch places. I don't need to "own" or have it proved to me because I know....in a deeper, more emotional way than sex can ever create.
Doesn't mean that hot, horny, mindless sex isn't still fun though! ;-) But even steak and lobster, caviar or truffels eaten daily over the years loses some of its flavor. And you've seen the meal I have to eat!!!
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I will still say sex is just sex .. if it was deeper then there is a problem .. and will agree it is not easy .. but if we all spend our time dumping people that make a mistake or act on an impulse and don't realize what we really have then I suppose we are all doomed to be alone forever .. not that there is a really a problem with that either ....
and yes .. I've been on both sides of the argument
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Exactly....and it seems so black and white until you have been on both sides. And that happens all too easily.
Shadow..the problem is, sometimes there is no why. See, this is the mistake so many people make. That someone having sex someplace else has anything to do with us. Now, for sure, sometimes it can. If the whole relationship is on the wrong track...people get their wandering feet on. But very often nooky on the side has absolutely nothing to do with your partner. NOTHING.
Doesn't mean he "anythings" you one iota less. Any more than the book he read that afternoon has anything to do with you or the movie he saw. Now if this is a chronic, serial condition it might mean that your sex life is not the best or not very satisfying for him (still doesn't mean everything else isn't great) or it could mean he has a sex addiction (still nothing to do with you) or many other things.
But for the most part, it just means we are all weak and fallable and human, that in the right conditions we can all fall....and yes, horny.
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So I was right in that there is still a why ... just that you might be better off not taking the why quite so personally, as it might not be anything you've done wrong ...
 mile:.
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
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That still depends on how you look at it...unless by reason you're including just horny. But you're right. Things happen. The mistake is thinking that they somehow always have to do with us. "What did I do wrong", "Doesn't he love me?" "How could he do this to me?"
When it usually has absolutely nothing to do with the partner at that momment. This is of course if we are only talking about sex on the side in a functioning relationship, and only you know whether that is the case or not. If it's all crap, then it's just one part of an overall bad picture. If things are ok, then it's just...... sex. Only peripheraly to do with you.
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Well said  .
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
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