Feminism

[Yosuke]

Ok, I want to start a conversation about one of my favorite topics mile:

So, what do you all think about feminism? Do you know what it's about, do you think it's still needed in today's world, etc? And what do you think about ultra conservative women leaders like Sarah Palin that claim to be feminists and at the same time tear down everything feminism has stood for over the last 100 years?

My perspective: I identify as a feminist, after fully understanding what the movement is about. You don't have to be a girl, obviously, and feminism is much more than 'we want girl power and equal rights'. We don't think about it, but feminism is responsible for women having the right to vote, having access to birth control, and sexual education advocating safe sex practice and abstinence as being equally viable options, and protections for women that are rape victims. And, I don't want this thread to turn into a debate on abortion, but abortion has been around for thousands of years. It's going to happen regardless of whether it is legal or not, and providing it as a legal and safe service is another credit to feminism. I know too many women of the older generations in the United States that had friends or worse, walked in on a friend as she bled out from a 'coathanger' self induced abortion.

Not only that, feminists have ALWAYS been among the first groups to support other minorities. A tenant of modern feminism is equal legal and social rights for the LGBT community. Feminists are some of our biggest allies in the United States. The entire philosophy is based on the idea that a human's social and political status should not be predicated on one's biological sex. Furthermore, feminism resists the dichotomous male/female gender roles that our society seems to love. The idea is this: Whether a woman wants to remain childness and pursue a high powered legal or political career or want to be a housewife and care for her children, she should be able to choose whichever. It doesnt matter if she is a housewife, a mother, a teacher, secretary, lawyer, or the Secretary of State for the world's most powerful nation. All are viable options that should be available for her to choose. The same goes for men. If a man wants to be a businessman or a stay at home dad, a President or an interior designer, all options should be available to him without social backlash. Furthermore, 'female' is unconsciously seen as being inferior.

You even see this patriarchal sort of mindset in the gay community sometimes. My example: a friend asked me who was the 'woman' in the relationship when I was dating a guy. By that he meant who was the more submissive one, and equating female with weakness and submission is misogynistic. I vastly prefer the top/bottom/versatile way of identifying. It *usually* does not connotate that the bottom partner is the weaker of the pair, and thus the 'woman'. So my simple answer to my friend: well, we're both men in the relationship, that's the point of being gay, isnt it?

Sorry for the long post. I know that long posts lose attention of the reader. I also am a big fan of Sally McFague, feminist Christian theologan, and other writers like Barbara Kingsolver and Leslie Marmon Silko. Anyways, I'll shut up, and thanks for listening! :biggrin:

[sweetlad2010]

hmmmmm there twats!!!

Sorry but I dont have time for them!!

[Yosuke]

Well, thank you for so curtly dimissing a post I put so much effort into making. To each his own I guess.

[ardus]

I find this interesting, I've never really understood feminism, but I think a lot of that is because I've never really seen the need for it. The women I grew up with were strong women in whatever they did. My mom worked a job ever since I was 6 years old and she was always good at it and well respected at her workplace. My two widowed aunts who lived with us were not career minded they were stay at home types but they were both just as strong and independent minded as my mom they just expressed it in the way they felt was best, which was keeping a tightly run house, and I have to say they were very good at it. All my sisters, I have 3 by the way, chose to get married to men they loved and they all have children or are trying to have children because that's what they want to do. So most of the women I've been close to never needed an outlet like that. Perhaps my life experience is limited in this area, I have after all been in an exclusively male profession for ten years. But I still find this an interesting topic and would be interested to hear other opinions.
Richard

[sweetlad2010]

Well, thank you for so curtly dimissing a post I put so much effort into making. To each his own I guess.

Sorry I didnt mean to be funny mate, but I've had so many problems with Feminist it isnt funny anymore.

I had one of this "Woman" at my school and she had my life hell!!

[Yosuke]

That's wonderful that you grew up around great female role models. The interesting thing about feminism is that it can shift to meet modern needs. The idea is that all people should be able to choose whatever career or lifestyle path (excluding pedophiles, murderers, etc) and have no legal, political, or social barriers to doing such. So in short the purpose of feminism shifts. Originally it arose to give women the right to vote and to enter public educations (why we now have co-ed universities). Then the focus became reproductive rights, first in the 50's as the fight for easy access to birth control, then in the 70's as right to a safe abortion. In the 60's feminism sided with the Civil Rights movement. And in the 80's the activism turned towards making the idea of women in power more socially acceptable...i.e. if a woman does not want to become a mother, she is not a failure as a human. And the modern role feminism plays, besides maintaining its past achievements, is advocating for full equality in the LGBT community. Modern feminists include: Bill and Hillary Clinton, Condoleeza Rice, Lady Gaga, Megan Fox, JK Rowling, Michelle Obama, Barney Frank, and Felicity Huffman. Feminists from times past include Eleanor Roosevelt, Jackie Kennedy, and Sally McFague.

Sweetlad: I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but you can't judge an entire movement from one bad person. It would be like me saying I have no use for black people because I was bullied by a black kid in school. If you are curious about the movement and its past and present uses, though I'd be happy to answer any questions.

[marshlander]

Like Richard, I find the term "feminism" difficult. I appreciate, Yosuke, the points you make about the battles that have had to be fought over the years, but if we discuss feminism in a context that does not even acknowledge masculinism surely we have a pendulum that is going to swing out too far at some stage?

I do not consider myself a feminist or an anti-feminist, but I am much more interested in fairness. Fairness is not a feminist issue, but a human issue. An "ism" will usually spawn some groups that espouse notions of superiority. We have seen this in terms of race, sex, sexuality ... pretty much any of the ways in which we classify the species. Without knowing much about the philosophical underpinning I see feminism as a step on the road to fairness.

[Cardiganwearer]

I met a lady once, she was very nice, so I'm all in favour of feminismmile:

Actually,

Hundreds of years ago when I was a student, we gay activists were always on the best of terms with the feminists. They were on our political wavelength and we did lots of campaigns together. They changed my view of feminism and showed me it wasn't dour and ideological.

Oddly enough the lesbian feminists were a bit less forthcoming, I suspect they had separtatism much more on their minds.

My view of feminism got off to a shaky start. I read The Female Eunuch and couldn't really see at the time how what read to me like a book of literary crticism had to do with the revolution. Germaine Greer's appearance many years later on Big Brother makes me question her judgement; we must be thankfull that her's wasn't the only feminism.

I shared a house at the time and we had a house subscription to Spare Rib, the feminist political mag. We cancelled when they started to talk about giving birth to the enemy.

Like all movements that have achieved something they will be criticised by people who are incapable of seeing that they put themselves out, took risks and did something. Those bloody suffragettes, causing all that trouble. Women have the vote, what were they up to back then?

[Cardiganwearer]

Sorry to hog the thread but I'm going to have to take up Marshlander's point about fairness.

Fairness is what the people with the power extend to the people without. It is discretionary and implies no rights.

What feminists were after and what gay people are after is rights, not favours. Civil partnership is an example of the benevolence of society handing out fairness. A right to a proper marriage, indistinguishable in law and custom from the straight version is what we want and we shouldn't let any notion of fairness or the largesse of those with the power put us off.

My reaction is fuelled by seeing David Cameron's video for the it gets better campaign; god I really do hate them all.

[fredv3b]

There have been plenty of men who have been in favour of contraception but who could hardly be called pro-feminist. I really couldn't give an opinion on feminism without a decent definition of what it is and isn't.