It is my belief that within the next 10-30 years we will have unlocked the ability to live forever (that is to say, no death from old age or disease). My question, then, is that if this were to become a reality, what would peoples' thoughts be on it?
I basically see immortality as manifesting in one of three ways:
1) "Elven" immortality (after Tolkien's elves). No aging, no death by disease, but an outside force can still kill you (for example, you could be shot, or fall from a lethal height)
2) "Godly" immortality. No aging, absolutely nothing can kill you (that is to say, even if you want to die you can't; you've lost the ability to do so). Whether this means that your body is indestructible or that you've simply transcended the need for a body is up to interpretation.
3) Münchausen immortality. No aging, absolutely nothing can kill you, but you can choose to end your immortality (i.e., go back to aging and being able to die) whenever you want.
What are your takes on these three versions of immortality? Would you want any of them? Which ones, and why/why not? What are your thoughts on the concept of immortality itself? Is it something to strive for? To avoid?
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
•
Godly immortality I never see happening mostly because of the whole, we're human. Not even science could make us gods.
Elven seems more realistic but I'm not sure how you could stop aging :/
Munchausen I don't even know but that one is the one I'd go with because honestly at some point in life one would probably want to die :/
•
Actually, there are a fair amount of technologies in the works that could stop or even reverse aging. Things like cloning younger versions of your own organs to use in transplants or "upgrading" our biological functions with microscopic robots that do the job better are receiving a lot of funding right now, and are looking pretty promising currently.
Furthermore, there is another treatment that is very promising: telomere replacement. Telomeres are a repeating DNA sequence at the end of a chromosome that marks that the relevant data has ended. Whenever your cells divide, the telomere chain gets a little shorter. Over time, this causes cells to deteriorate and eventually die. This is the primary cause of aging. There is, however, an enzyme called telomerase that replaces these chains, and recently experiments were done with mice in which the enzyme was introduced into aged mice to study its effects. Not only did the mice stop aging, they actually reversed the aging process, becoming physically younger. I'd include a link to the study, but I don't have enough posts yet to do so.
As for "Godly" immortality, I'd agree that it's a lofty thing to assume that we could reach that state, but I don't think it's impossible. If we figure out how to upgrade our bodies and brains by merging them with machines then we will be able to transcend our biological limitations. After that, it's really anyone's guess as to what we could accomplish.
Also, out of curiosity, why do you think that one would probably want to die at some point in one's life? I think that this is probably the common idea nowadays, but I've never understood it.
•
I don't see any of them becoming. For example
1. Elven: The earth would sooner or later become so over populated the planet couldn't sustain life. When water and land started to run out, major world wide wars would start quite possibly wipe out the human race.
2. Godly: Would never happen as God teaches the price of sin is death.
3. Munchausen: This would be like the first Elven, only without being able to kill one another, again the world would be over populated and most would rather die than to live in a world such as this.
Good thread..... makes one think of the possibilities.
•
The manchausen immortality. It would take the rush rush out of life. Do you ever feel like you will never have enough time to experience everything you want to get out of life? I feel that way. Places to go, books to read, music to discover, people to meet, and things to learn. If you never died, then we take out needing to do things like get a full-time job, a spouse etc. the common goals and rushing to get these done before we die. But once we don't die, we can take all the time we need to do everything and anything we ever wanted. All while keeping, lets say your 25 year old body as an added bonus throughout your life.
And then, once your done and experience "there is absolutely nothing else i want to do, and now i've had a good and full life" something that not everyone gets to experience, then you can end it.
•
munchausen, because eventually i'm going decide i'm done here anyways and i just cant see myself commiting suicide.
•
Yes, Munchausen is certainly the best choice since there really are no downsides (unless you don't want to be immortal at all for whatever reason).
But what if it isn't available? Would you take immortality if it was only of the Elven or Godly variety?
Also, I'm curious to know why people seem to think that there will come a time when they desire death? My personal belief is that there is simply nothing to be gained by death and literally everything to lose. I'm not trying to push that belief on anyone else or anything, just curious as to what thought processes brought you to a different conclusion?
•
I'm not sure which type of immortality I'd want to choose. I'd prefer not to age, but I don't know about living forever. Things get boring. There's only so many times you can go to the toilet, wash your hands, shave you face, drive your car and so on before you think, "You know, I'm really sick of this."
•
It is just in my nature to say elven... I am some how compelled..... :tongue:
Seriously the whole idea of living for ever and ever scares the crap out of me.
Maybe live a longer time, 200 years, maybe 500... but forever and ever.... That sounds very boring. how many times do I need to climb Everest before it ceases to awe me and become common place? If I lived forever, doing everything over and over again... That is hell, not heaven.
The fear of death compels us to seek ways to live on, some of the most remarkable things of human culture are directly related to that need to live on. That drive and desire to leave our mark, the fear that we may die tomorrow has had a profound effect on how we humans have advanced.
Even death itself has lead to some of the wonders of our art, even structures have been built because someone died. A world without more requiems, a world without more poetry on the grief of continuing life after your love passed on?
No, by no means has it all been good, but the good comes with the bad, if we decide to leave the bad we also leave the good.
Being indestructible is an all around bad idea. Many of us are compelled to 'do good' out of fear of harm for ourselves. Many of us do good and have large reservoirs of empathy because we have experiences pains and hurts and the fragility of our human nature. Take away pain and hurt, and damage, we become far less humane.
It is the thrill of life and the threat that it will end that keeps us moving on, and trying new things. If there is no real threat then soon the Adrenalin stops flowing. Imagine all of the adrenalin junkies throwing themselves off of buildings attempting to get that rush that only comes because they know they are fragile... and it is no more.
While immortality may look good on paper, I fear that the reality is that it is worse than death, worse than the tortures of any fiery hell.
Longevity, sure, bring it on. Immorality - I shudder to think.
•
You must be a transhumanist, though even most transhumanists I know aren't that optimistic (rather they think lifespans will continue to increase until aging is completely optional, and if they're lucky they'll be alive 200 years from now thanks to the life extensions harnessed by science to accept that immortality).
I don't believe godly or Münchausen immortality is possible, but I'll assume for the moment that it is. I presume this means consciousness can be downloaded (and there are some very intriguing experiments going on regarding this though I don't know the details and scientists I know warn me about media hype & distortion, or even what a University's PR staff has to say) and so we could achieve immortality with multiple bodies similar to the cylons in the recent Battlestar Galactica. I vaguely recall hearing some really bizarre predictions of especially powerful nanotech being used to cybernetically enhance us to the point of immortality and freedom from material needs (and there was an X-Files story on this as well) though I really don't buy that happening, but for the sake of argument I'll accept that as a possibility as well.
I would choose immortality as long as death was still an option (which I presume is by driving into a star, for example, or if Earth bound entering into a crematorium or using malicious nanites which I'm sure would exist).
I would want death to be an option because even though it's (in all likelihood) annihilation, it's also an absence of pain. Life can be brutal and painful and countless people choose to end their lives all the time, sometimes because of chronic pain or debilitating injury (as I read once, "if life is pain, then what is death?"). As immortal beings we could suffer as we've never suffered before and be pushed into brutal slavery through epic torment. And I recall a story of an immortal who couldn't be killed who was instead subdued and then given over to a mad doctor for sadistic experiments. Even without malice or malfunction there are also cosmological forces could make life unbearable as well (like if we suddenly found ourselves without a planet and had to live in the vacuum of space).
And even if all that can be avoided we don't really know what we'd be like a thousand, million, billion years from now and may have gone completely insane because we can't stand such a limitless lifespan (perhaps everything would become unbearable tedium). There's also the question of could we stand our new condition since our minds and bodies are one, not a dichotomy, and our new bodies (like say if they were more mechanical than biological) might erase any joy of life.
I'm sympathetic to transhumanism and what it hopes to accomplish but if I had to choose an all or nothing deal then I'd choose death (otherwise I'd choose immortality as long as I could end it anytime I wished).
•
|
immortality: take it or leave it?
