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Amsterdam is the Gay-bashing Capital of Europe
#11
eastofeden Wrote:I believe denominations play an important role in shaping an Islam country. Islam has a lot of branches (and also sub branches) within it. It's pretty much like how Christians has Catholic, Protestant etc. Each branch has its own way of teaching and administrating Islam.

Thanks for taking the time to explain Jay...it helps alot. I have a terrible time understanding any religion really but I rarely hear anything from Muslim individuals or groups that helps me personally come to terms with Islam...what I usually hear is that it is the religion of peace and for the life of me I cannot reconcile that at all...until maybe now with your statement above..

...I know a wonderful Muslim lady here in the US from message boards who is very liberal and I have had a hard time understanding how this can be...which is why I thank you for explaining this because now it makes alot more sense.

I personally think that Islam is not a religion of peace as the religion contains a lot of violence. I mean just look at the laws and types of punishments inside the religion. Stoning to death, chopping hands, whipping and more are all inside the holy book (I revised the book from A to Z twice when I was a teenager).

What makes one Muslim more liberal than another is himself/herself. A liberal and modern Muslim uses common sense to judge and to decide.

Islam wants its followers to obey its laws and rules without being questioned. So when a liberal Muslim favors for homosexuality rights, he/she is no longer a real/pure Muslim as Islam disapproves homosexuality. There's a special term for these kind of Muslims but I forget what it is.

According to Islam, these types of Muslims might as well just forget being Muslims as they will end up in hell anyway (for disobeying the foundation of Islam and favoring the sinners).

From my observation, the current and new generations of Muslims in my country are separated into four.
  • Group 1 still favors and obeys Islam completely. They live for Islam in a quite extreme way. Some of them spend their lives living in a small wooden-ready to-crumble shack. Their objective is only learn about Islam and more Islam. Group 1 is minor in my country.
  • Group 2 still favors and obeys Islam completely. They live for Islam but not to the extreme level. They live modernly but to an extent. They oppose homosexuality and other types of sins. Nonetheless they are also corrupted by the modern world and have been westernized. Example: My own big sister, she is a really religious girl but fanatic with Korean boy bands. I consider her to be a hypocrite but she doesn't see it. Islam does not allow modern entertainment as it can distract its followers from the religion. The only entertainment that Islam actually allows is anything that relates to Islam like meditating, singing about the prophets and God etc. Group 2 conquers most part of my country.
  • Group 3 - They practice and obey Islam completely but they are also modern and tolerant. They can accept say, homosexuality. "Your business is your business and I can respect that." Group 3 is not in big percentage but they can be found in the urban sides of the country.
  • Group 4. Modern Muslims who no longer practice what's being taught by Islam. They have been influenced the urban/modern world that they are living in. Most of them use common sense to decide what's good and what's bad for them. They don't need the religion to decide it for them. There are also modern Muslims that have stopped practicing Islam because they think Islam is not cool and hip - "I drink alcohol beverage because it's cool". Bigger scale than Group 3 and rising.
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#12
Jay Wrote:... I saw this one coming. I welcome European countries to be opened, liberal and friendly to outsiders but you guys need to be extra careful and picky in selecting people who want to migrate to your countries. I don't know how but it needs to be done for the safety of your own people. Or maybe expel the ones making problem in your countries.

Personally, I'm sorry but I always disagree with the idea of building mosques in European countries. This is one of the reasons why.

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There are many factors that contribute in making one Islamic country more extreme than other Islamic countries.

I believe denominations play an important role in shaping an Islam country. Islam has a lot of branches (and also sub branches) within it. It's pretty much like how Christians has Catholic, Protestant etc. Each branch has its own way of teaching and administrating Islam.

Now blend that with the politic, administration, laws, cultures, economy and environment of that particular Islam country. The result will determine how extreme that country can be
Thanks, Jay. I can only speak about my experience here in the UK, but the only people who do speak up about immigration are branded racists and right-wing extremists. Of course, we have a long history of immigration from former colonies and now we have second, third and more generations living here. Britain is their home country. Where else could they go, even if a formula could be determined to expel undesirables? I am torn by all this. My natural inclination is to live and let live, but I feel something very uneasy stirring in me every time I see a new mosque being built. Where I live with PA in France there was talk of a field near us being bought and a mosque being built there. We are, of course, both unhappy about it, but question our right to have a legitimate grievance about it.

Of course, there are many expressions of Christianity, but I don't notice Catholics and Protestants, for example, going round bombing each other ... oh wait, Northern Ireland is part of the UK :frown: ... okay, apart from that. I assume, then, that in most countries the different branches of Islam tolerate the others? All I know is that Shia seem to think it's okay to hate Sunni and everyone hates Sufis? If only religions weren't so hung up on redefining the meaning of the word "truth"!

Maybe all holy books should be required to have a copy of Dr Seuss's "Butter Battle Book" appended.
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#13
Jay Wrote:I personally think that Islam is not a religion of peace as the religion contains a lot of violence ...
That is my impression, but it is interesting to hear you say that. All I hear from Muslims is that Islam is a religion of peace, but what I see is the opposite.

Jay Wrote:Group 4. Modern Muslims who no longer practice what's being taught by Islam. They have been influenced the urban/modern world that they are living in. Most of them use common sense to decide what's good and what's bad for them. They don't need the religion to decide it for them. There are also modern Muslims that have stopped practicing Islam because they think Islam is not cool and hip - "I drink alcohol beverage because it's cool". Bigger scale than Group 3 and rising.
That sounds like cause for some hope then ...?
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#14
marshlander Wrote:My natural inclination is to live and let live, but I feel something very uneasy stirring in me every time I see a new mosque being built. Where I live with PA in France there was talk of a field near us being bought and a mosque being built there. We are, of course, both unhappy about it, but question our right to have a legitimate grievance about it.[


This is how I see it. One mosque in a European country will lead to another mosque and another. Having number of mosques will attract more Muslims to migrate into that European country. From there, Islam culture will spread slowly but widely. There will eventually be a clash between Islam culture with the original culture of that European country. There goes freedom to homosexuality, atheism etc. As a result, you will get something like Amsterdam.

The problem that I see here is the migration. Muslims coming from multiple Islam countries with each of them carrying different profiles, cultures and backgrounds. It will be a mixture of liberal Muslims with the extreme Muslims. Liberal Muslims will definitely have no problem to tolerate and grasp the existence culture. But the extreme ones? They will refuse to grasp and understand. They expect the original culture to grasp and understand theirs though.

marshlander Wrote:I assume, then, that in most countries the different branches of Islam tolerate the others? All I know is that Shia seem to think it's okay to hate Sunni and everyone hates Sufis?

Each branch seems to fight with each other most of the time. At least the extreme ones. They tend to kill each other.

Yes, a lot hate Sufis because they aren't seen as practicing the real Islam. But personally, I like those whirling practice (sort of dancing like) done by the Turkeys. They look unique and pretty.

Quote:That is my impression, but it is interesting to hear you say that. All I hear from Muslims is that Islam is a religion of peace, but what I see is the opposite.

Obey without questioning. What comes from the God shouldn't be questioned and everything that comes from Him is all good. Common sense, out of the window.

Islam is a "religion of peace" as long you do not cross its border and teaching basically.

Quote:That sounds like cause for some hope then ...?

The number will continue to rise but they will not dominate. I don't think so.
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#15
... the local council has decided to install hotline telephones in the homes of gay couples because the mayor is fed up with discovering too late there is a problem. Some couples have apparently bee forced to flee their homes in fear Sad

Utrecht, for heaven's sakes! They have such a nice Cotswold morris side too.

Utrecht to introduce 'gay-alert' hotline | Radio Netherlands Worldwide
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#16
Do you ever see or hear of any Islamic religious fanatics bombing Christian religious fanatics, or Catholic verses Protestants fanatics. No its nearly always the innocent people of this world who live in peace and tolerate each other who are killed and maimed.
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#17
Rychard the Lionheart Wrote:Do you ever see or hear of any Islamic religious fanatics bombing Christian religious fanatics, or Catholic verses Protestants fanatics. No its nearly always the innocent people of this world who live in peace and tolerate each other who are killed and maimed.
You may be right, but Nigeria, Northern Ireland and Lebanon come to mind.
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#18
Quote:The number will continue to rise but they will not dominate. I don't think so.

I've read this thread, with extreme fear instilled in myself. I fear your thought of this not happening may be wrong. I hope to hope deeply now, that they do not allow that Mosque to be built in New York. I have never for the life of me connected and understood the ramifications of allowing a culture or religion as fanatic as Islam to integrate. But, as Marshy says, how can it be stopped, when we are looked at as racists, and politically extreme for wanting to maintain a level of peace, familiarity, and neutrality?

I am quite afraid of the perpetuation of Islam and its absurd tenets and creeds.
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#19
If you're afraid of the encroaching of Islam in the Bahamas, what should we be thinking? There is this thinking that wherever islam is implanted, be it a mosque or a muslim family, the ground they occupy is seen as being muslim ground, which means that the more they come and live in Europe the less of Europe there will be free of islamic law and religion. It's a slow predation on our lands and countries. Even though catholicism and protestantism have created long religious wars in the past, they were, more or less, precisely that: a thing of the past. We have evolved, probably thanks to science and to secularism.
Do we really want to go back to the wars of religion and fear of other religions that they had in the 16th & 17th centuries? Or closer to us, do we really want to live through that fear of the Jews that gave rise to Naziism? We are playing with fire here, definitely.
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#20
"Do we really want to go back to the wars of religion and fear of other religions that they had in the 16th & 17th centuries? Or closer to us, do we really want to live through that fear of the Jews that gave rise to Naziism?"

Yes, Prince, this is precisely what I am afraid of. Do you think there is a remedy for being tolerant but exclusive? I mean you don't want to say NO Muslims are welcome to your country; and we don't want your customs and practices. How does this be handled sensitively?
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