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outing people
#21
I don't agree with outing, I think it's a disgusting thing to do.

Gfxtwin, if you want to help someone come out of the closet, you need to do it as my friend did for me. I was in the closet and in denial. One New Year's Eve party, a friend came to me and we had a conversation. During that conversation he said to me:

"Chuck, I think you are a tortured soul, and I don't think you'll be happy until you admit what you need to admit."

and he left it at that. A few minutes later, I came out to him, and to my friends at the party. My comming out anniversary is New Year's Eve, and I've been out since 1997.

To publicly out your friend takes his control and security away. To talk to him privately will be a better idea.
Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: 
''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!
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#22
gfxtwin Wrote:Why do you guys kinda equate "outing" someone to grabbing a gay person's arm and leading them down the street with a megaphone shouting, "EVERYONE LOOK AT THE HOMOSEXUAL!!!"?

So what is outing someone in your book?


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Fred

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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#23
What if he isn't gay?

Flamboyant doesn't equal gay anymore then straight acting means straight.

It's best to leave each person the ability to define and acknowledge who they are, rather then assume and insist on defining them yourself.
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#24
Those are wise words TommyinKY.

Respect
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Green"]Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”

Oscar Wilde[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Respect
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#25
It is wrong.

Our closets give us the illusion of safety. Most who are in the closet are there because they can not face up to the potential of rejection.

As for being 'flamboyant' it is not just a 'gay thing' - there are plenty effeminate straight men who you would swear are 'gay' by their behaviors but have never been with a man and never want to be with a man.

We can never, really, fully assume that a person is straight, bi, gay, whatever. These labels are purely self identification 'markers'.

I know a straight male hairdresser (married, with 2 kids, a third on the way) who purposefully 'flames' around clients because they (the clients) actually think he does better work as a 'gay' man. He gets more tips, larger tips and more clients by swishing a little than he did when he acted straight.

Off shift, he is as straight as a board (in his behaviors) it is an act that he must play in order to make money at his job. Sort of cruel irony there if you think about it.

I am straight acting, I have a deep voice, walk like a man, talk like a man, drive a jacked up 1977 GMC Suburban (large tires, you need to step up into the cab - designed for off roading - not a 'gay man's toy'), I wear jeans and flannel, I do manual labor, construction. On top of this I hate shopping, I only use fancy shampoo because the partner insists (I'm happy enough to use bar soap). I do not lisp, I do not have a limp wrist - I do limp, but not swish. I think puce is something the dog does when it is sick - for instance the dog puced on the bed Christmas Night, leading to me having to change the bedding (She ate too much at the in-laws).

People constantly assume I am straight.

We assume much by behaviors because we are programed to believe in stereotypes.

My Partner bought me a T-Shirt that says:

Sorry, I'm Gay
No really, honestly I only act straight

The reason being is because he is sick and tired of being assumed to be my gay brother and not my husband.

Assumptions hurt people, it distracts from what a person is really 'worth' too.

A person who identifies as straight (in the closet or not) is straight in their own world. Let them have that.
<---<< >>--->

[SIZE=4]I told you I had the body of a 25 year old....

[Image: 57929.jpg?v=1]
[/SIZE]
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#26
gfxtwin Wrote:But I can't help but feel a lack of respect for an adult hiding from who they are because it's more comfortable or easier. Especially if it's among a group of people who love and care about each other.

We don't all have that luxury. If I made sure I was out everywhere I would have lost a gym membership, mixed with gun nuts who believe gays should be killed (before I knew who they were), and may have been forced to live in some slums--with kids.

Hiding our orientation we got a good place we could afford that turned out to be racist and homophobic (they'd have never rented to us had they known, or had I tried to get my name on the lease as well), but at first assumed I was an older kid or relative until my best friend (who's black) visited us once too often and got them to looking more closely at us and our girl telling people. Then many kids were told not to play with ours, fundies tried getting my partner fired (only the threat of a lawyer saved her job--and only in the short term for as far as we know), and they landlady (luckily more a secretary for the actual owner) with a Jesus pic (he's white, of course) tried evicting us--and again, would have had it not been the intervention of a lawyer. In short, by being outed it not only made my life and my partner's life harder but harder and more dangerous (with the real threat of homelessness and possibly losing the kids as a result of crushing poverty) for our kids.

Others have beloved families that would turn against them (or would feel pain that someone gay doesn't want them to feel), lifelong church going friends (and they, along with family, may even assault them, like this one), families that make college possible (who will cut off support if they know). People outed have committed suicide, even as an adult, and not necessarily because they're ashamed of being gay, but because of having their dreams smashed and/or heart broken as a result of being outed.

I wonder, do you really have any idea what "high minded" rhetoric actually means?

gfxtwin Wrote:Maybe my entire definition of outing is wrong. To me, being out doesn't mean you have to tell EVERYONE you're gay. You are out around the people who care about you, but you would never flaunt your gayness to a neo nazi or a known homophobe. Very few out gay men or lesbians would. Why do you guys kinda equate "outing" someone to grabbing a gay person's arm and leading them down the street with a megaphone shouting, "EVERYONE LOOK AT THE HOMOSEXUAL!!!"?

Maybe you wouldn't, at least not intentionally. But even if you're such an astute judge of character on who would be ok with it, one of those people who now know might then tell the wrong person (quite possibly meaning no harm).
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#27
okay , i need to get something straight (so to speak). when i talk about outing, I'm talking about letting someone who sets off my gaydar know that i highly suspect they are not straight. it can be a matter of just asking them about it once, or it can be more subtle, like how cellardwellar was led out. if outing means spreading the word and putting the news out there fore everyone to see, than no, i would never out someone. that IS horrible and apparently that is the definition, so i apologize for my ignorance. what i am talking about is letting someone who is closeted or on the downlow know that i suspect something is up. It would usually be for their sake and the sake of some poor naive straight partner they may have. for example, i might engage in a discussion about hot girls with some guy I suspect is gay, and if he seems to be faking enthusiasm i might say something that simply points out that he seems a bit uninterested and leave it at that. in a way i have made my suspicion known to him or likeminded people who may or may not be around that will also know what i mean, but it is still open to interpretation. it also comes down to this: if i am going to bring someone into my life, be them friend, love, or acquaintance, i want to have some idea of who they are. if someone is in my extended family or is a coworker and seems to be putting on an act around the opposite sex, for example, i want to know for myself what their deal is. They may be closeted for a good reason - like being a student at highscool - and if my gaydar goes off in that context i will help them STAY on the downlow by never bringing it up. but what if they are acting strange and secretive because they are attracted to members of the same sex that are children? What if they are a relative, someone who dates a relative, or are a close friend of a friend who hangs in my circle? In other words, I have little choice in ignoring them. Then it becomes a matter of making sure they aren't hiding something that might harm me or someone else I care about. That also includes being gay and closeted and PRETENDING to love someone I care about. Does this sound too harsh?
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#28
gfxtwin Wrote:okay , i need to get something straight (so to speak). when i talk about outing, I'm talking about letting someone who sets off my gaydar know that i highly suspect they are not straight. it can be a matter of just asking them or it can be more subtle, like how cellardwellar was told. if outing means spreading the word and putting the news out there fore everyone to see, than no, i would never out someone. that IS horrible and apparently that is the definition, so i apologize for my ignorance. what i am talking about is letting someone who is closeted or on the downlow know that i suspect something is up. It would usually be for their sake and the sake of some poor naive straight partner they may have. for example, i might engage in a discussion about hot girls with some guy I suspect is gay, and if he seems to be faking enthusiasm i might say something that simply points out that he seems a bit uninterested and leave it at that. in a way i have made my suspicion known to him or likeminded people who may or may not be around that will also know what i mean, but it is still open to interpretation. it also comes down to this: if i am going to bring someone into my life, be them friend, love, or acquaintance, i want to have some idea of who they are. if someone is in my extended family or is a coworker and seems to be putting on an act around the opposite sex, for example, i want to know for myself what their deal is. They may be closeted for a good reason - like being a student at highscool - and if my gaydar goes off in that context i will help them STAY on the downlow by never bringing it up. but what if they are acting strange and secretive because they are attracted to members of the same sex that are children? What if they are a relative, someone who dates a relative, or are a close friend of a friend who hangs in my circle? In other words, I have little choice in ignoring them. Then it becomes a matter of making sure they aren't hiding something that might harm me or someone else I care about. That also includes being gay and closeted and PRETENDING to love someone I care about. Does this sound too harsh?

As I said, a private confrontation (no matter how ill advised--or well considered, for that matter) is simply between you and the other person. That's not "outing" in the general sense of the word.

But publicly violating someone's innate right to privacy is rude, wrong, immoral and probably fattening.
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#29
LateBloomer Wrote:As I said, a private confrontation (no matter how ill advised--or well considered, for that matter) is simply between you and the other person. That's not "outing" in the general sense of the word.

But publicly violating someone's innate right to privacy is rude, wrong, immoral and probably fattening.

fattening?
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#30
gfxtwin Wrote:fattening?

Dry humor.

Smile
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