As bacteria somehow manages to stay alive in the entry process of meteorites entering the atmosphere, I would think that a new plague that we have no defense against is the highest possiblity

(07-21-2020, 07:55 PM)James Wrote: As bacteria somehow manages to stay alive in the entry process of meteorites entering the atmosphere, I would think that a new plague that we have no defense against is the highest possiblity

You know James, you raise a very good point.... Who says that aliens are going to be 6 ft tall and 150 lbs like us...or some huge creature...

(07-20-2020, 07:53 PM)InbetweenDreams Wrote: I think if anything happens, we will destroy ourselves.

That being said. Are there aliens? Are there other forms of life in the universe? Most likely. Will they find us? Probably not and if so by accident in my opinion. All the resources Earth has is infinitesimally puny...our sun is nothing to write home amount either. While I think we can point to ourselves as reasons why an aliens would wipe us out. I have to think that such a civilization of beings with the technology to travel abroad in space, presumably beyond the speed of light, would have likely solved many problems concerning energy, food, resources that the need to mindlessly slaughter and destroy life on a foreign planet for the sake of resources or whatever would be eliminated. The possibilities are endless, but while our understanding of the universe, space travel, etc are quite limited (after all we can't solve the problem of going to Mars without pretty much sending people to a certain death from radiation) we know that there are many, many obstacles to making space travel outside our solar system practical and the speed of light is a pretty slow speed limit when you factor in the grand scheme of things and how to avoid running into things at such speeds and so on.

The bottom line is, the risk of aliens wiping us out isn't 0 but I think we're far more likely to do it ourselves, an asteroid, a gamma ray burst or climate change...

I mentioned in my posts that aliens would have no need to attack Earth for our resources. Rather, I tried to make the point that a civilization that attains a post-scarcity level status would not be morally enlightened, and therefore could chose to attack us for a reason that might be nonsensical.

In speculating about aliens, there tends to be "great filters" that are in the way of civilizations attaining a status as a space-ferrying species. Among them is nuclear technology, and a lot of people speculate that the reason the galaxy isn't crawling with an alien species on every star system is because it's common for alien civilizations to wipe themselves out in nuclear war. For all we know, it is simply inevitable that intelligent life is doomed to destroy itself with nuclear bombs.

Another possible great filter is AI. Artificial Intelligence can be either the salvation or damnation of a species. For all we know, it is inevitable that intelligent life replaces itself with AI if it survives not blowing itself up with nukes. When it comes to AI, it is essentially designed so that it can improve and upgrade itself by only itself, and grow smarter and more powerful on its own. This makes AI, once fully developed post-singularity, shoot to god-like heights once the biological lifeforms that created it set that chain in motion.

An alien civilization that discovers us might be an anti-AI species and wipe us out before we develop an AI that could potentially become a god-like threat to them, or an alien civilization could be an AI itself and destroy us by creating us into machines, thinking it is only uplifting us.

To be clear, I do think it is more probable that humans will destroy ourselves before aliens have the chance to do it, but the one thing that makes me think we might just survive long enough to make first contact is I do think there is a chance a sliver of humanity might survive the next world war (and let's face it, it's only a matter of time until WWIII breaks out, and it'll be game over).

I do think we have the capabilities of going to Mars. This is my problem though, there's just too many things to explain. You mentioned how hard it is to talk about this without going on a tangent on conspiracy theories, but there's just so many tangents to discuss - space travel, AI, etc. You mentioned the vastness of space will probably help protect us from alien invasions, but even if it's impossible to travel past the speed of light, the galaxy has a diameter of around a hundred thousand light years. So if faster-than-light travel is ultimately impossible, a civilization that travels a fraction of that can still cross the galaxy on spaceships built to last generations over hundreds of thousands or millions of years - a long time, but a spec in the billions of years the universe has existed, and nothing in the future lifespan of the universe.

If you were to ask me what I bet the future looks like, I would bet it's the Matt Damon movie Elysium, only I don't think there will be a fairy tale ending. I do believe the future will be the Earth turning into an unlivable shit-hole, and the rich people will escape it by living on a luxurious space station, sipping margaritas while they watch us suffocate to death. This is not a future I want to happen, and why I actually kind of want aliens to just wipe us out to begin with. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos might have shown us how space travel is more feasible than we think with their reusable rockets, but the way they treat their workers shows a bleak picture. This is another tangent, but I can't stop thinking about it. There really is no hope for the future.

Do I think there are possible alternatives that will end in humans entering into a Star Trek like utopia? Yes, and that is what most upsets me. The future will be paved with misery, when it doesn't have to be.

(07-21-2020, 09:12 PM)Chase Wrote: I mentioned in my posts that aliens would have no need to attack Earth for our resources. Rather, I tried to make the point that a civilization that attains a post-scarcity level status would not be morally enlightened, and therefore could chose to attack us for a reason that might be nonsensical.

Nonsensical as in, just for shits and giggles? I mean I guess if Dr. Weird was running things I suppose that could happen. I just don't see the point in senseless destruction. I don't think you would go blowing up planets because...why not?

(07-21-2020, 09:12 PM)Chase Wrote: In speculating about aliens, there tends to be "great filters" that are in the way of civilizations attaining a status as a space-ferrying species. Among them is nuclear technology, and a lot of people speculate that the reason the galaxy isn't crawling with an alien species on every star system is because it's common for alien civilizations to wipe themselves out in nuclear war. For all we know, it is simply inevitable that intelligent life is doomed to destroy itself with nuclear bombs.

That is certainly possible and unfortunate. That also assumes that other intelligent life forms experience emotions, things like greed and power are an issue for them. It is entirely possible for other intelligent life to not possess any emotion at all and make nothing but rational and logical choices (are you laughing yet?). Perhaps they have pointy ears too, who knows.

(07-21-2020, 09:12 PM)Chase Wrote: Another possible great filter is AI. Artificial Intelligence can be either the salvation or damnation of a species. For all we know, it is inevitable that intelligent life replaces itself with AI if it survives not blowing itself up with nukes. When it comes to AI, it is essentially designed so that it can improve and upgrade itself by only itself, and grow smarter and more powerful on its own. This makes AI, once fully developed post-singularity, shoot to god-like heights once the biological lifeforms that created it set that chain in motion.

An alien civilization that discovers us might be an anti-AI species and wipe us out before we develop an AI that could potentially become a god-like threat to them, or an alien civilization could be an AI itself and destroy us by creating us into machines, thinking it is only uplifting us.

That is certainly possible. AI doesn't seem harmful right now but in 10 years...20 years it could be smart enough to replace a lot of jobs, say customer support. Even at that point I don't think it would be at a point where it could take over the world. Looking out further and assuming we keep up the pace in advancement, it does start come into question.

(07-21-2020, 09:12 PM)Chase Wrote: To be clear, I do think it is more probable that humans will destroy ourselves before aliens have the chance to do it, but the one thing that makes me think we might just survive long enough to make first contact is I do think there is a chance a sliver of humanity might survive the next world war (and let's face it, it's only a matter of time until WWIII breaks out, and it'll be game over).

I do think we have the capabilities of going to Mars. This is my problem though, there's just too many things to explain. You mentioned how hard it is to talk about this without going on a tangent on conspiracy theories, but there's just so many tangents to discuss - space travel, AI, etc. You mentioned the vastness of space will probably help protect us from alien invasions, but even if it's impossible to travel past the speed of light, the galaxy has a diameter of around a hundred thousand light years. So if faster-than-light travel is ultimately impossible, a civilization that travels a fraction of that can still cross the galaxy on spaceships built to last generations over hundreds of thousands or millions of years - a long time, but a spec in the billions of years the universe has existed, and nothing in the future lifespan of the universe.

If you were to ask me what I bet the future looks like, I would bet it's the Matt Damon movie Elysium, only I don't think there will be a fairy tale ending. I do believe the future will be the Earth turning into an unlivable shit-hole, and the rich people will escape it by living on a luxurious space station, sipping margaritas while they watch us suffocate to death. This is not a future I want to happen, and why I actually kind of want aliens to just wipe us out to begin with. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos might have shown us how space travel is more feasible than we think with their reusable rockets, but the way they treat their workers shows a bleak picture. This is another tangent, but I can't stop thinking about it. There really is no hope for the future.

Mostly being cheeky about the conspiracy theories. One of the big problems we face going to Mars is the radiation. Astronauts that make such a trip probably will survive such a trip but will almost certainly die from cancer and other complications.

For the sake of the discussion, let's suppose WWIII, asteroid, pandemic or whatever doesn't take up all out...and that they're not already among us. Perhaps the discussion about WWIII could be in a separate thread?

(07-21-2020, 09:41 PM)InbetweenDreams Wrote:

(07-21-2020, 09:12 PM)Chase Wrote: I mentioned in my posts that aliens would have no need to attack Earth for our resources. Rather, I tried to make the point that a civilization that attains a post-scarcity level status would not be morally enlightened, and therefore could chose to attack us for a reason that might be nonsensical.

Nonsensical as in, just for shits and giggles? I mean I guess if Dr. Weird was running things I suppose that could happen. I just don't see the point in senseless destruction. I don't think you would go blowing up planets because...why not?

Well, Joseph Stalin caused millions of people to starve to death for shits and giggles, and he got access to nuclear bombs. Senseless destruction is happening all around us. If you put yourself in an alien's shoes, it makes sense to destroy humans, or at least contain us in some sort of zoo-like prison, because otherwise it would be only a matter of time until we humans go after them.

(07-21-2020, 09:56 PM)Chase Wrote: Well, Joseph Stalin caused millions of people to starve to death for shits and giggles, and he got access to nuclear bombs. Senseless destruction is happening all around us. If you put yourself in an alien's shoes, it makes sense to destroy humans, or at least contain us in some sort of zoo-like prison, because otherwise it would be only a matter of time until we humans go after them.

Couple of things to consider. My opinion is that many world leaders are psychopaths, or at a minimum narcissistic. I mean, do you want the job of running the country? To be criticized by one group of people for doing something and by another for not? I think there's two groups of people, people who actually want to make the world better, and those who want praise and fame. Most of the people who are Senators, Governors and Presidents want fame, glory and praise. Those people are the ones that are the most dangerous. I don't think Stalin killed millions of people for shits and giggles, he had a "vision" and and was attempting to carry it out....somehow there are still people who are sympathetic to Stalin which blows my mind. That being said, what I know about Stalin and Russian history is very little.

It is logical to think that something like the "Prime Directive" in star trek exists as to how you go about making contact with a species on another planet. I doubt that showing up and saying "Hey you want to break the speed of light? Here's a warp drive, have fun!" is a good idea. Of course, that is making assumptions about aliens and what their motivations are.

Think of it like this. Assume that aliens can experience things that we simply do not. For instance, we can feel happy, sad, angry and scared. They may feel those, they may not. They may not see light like we do, so speculating what an encounter with aliens might look like...well is just that. I do think there is equal chance that they might not be interested in us at all, or they might be explorers or they might be hostile. One thing for sure though, they'll more than likely discover our presence from all the satellites, radio and all the other stuff we broadcast long before they get here. I mean if we can communicate with spacecraft (Voyager I & II) that are outside the solar system, they can find our stuff with relative ease, or one would think. I would also venture that you could learn a lot about us from all the signals we put out into space.

If they were to destroy us, they probably won't even bother to make their presence known. I mean why bother with that at all? If they show up, they'll either enslave us or make contact in a peaceful manner.

I saw this online and thought of this thread.

I wonder if they see us as something like a reality tv show.
Alien 1: did you see they put the crazy orange guy in charge?
Alien 2: this season is going to be amazing!

(08-01-2020, 12:54 AM)ceez Wrote: I wonder if they see us as something like a reality tv show.
Alien 1: did you see they put the crazy orange guy in charge?
Alien 2: this season is going to be amazing!

Could be....large floating heads in the sky might be an indicator...



I doubt they would be viewing us for entertainment, although I'd wager they would be very puzzled by the crazy orange guy. Frankly though, I think they would be disappointed in the said state of affairs on the planet. The number of human rights violations around the world, poverty, hunger and so on...They just might keep on going...

If one alien race exists there are probably others.
If others exist then there were probably encounters long before ours between the older races.
With encounters between old races occurring there may be a set of rules in place, allied races banding together for security and prosperity.

I don't think an alien race would see us as a threat or even a pest.

Its probably more likely we would be recruited into one of the groups then destroyed.
Life is precious rare and although our tech is likely a childs toy in comparison with all the progress we have its likely we have SOME ideas of value.

Great writers, poets etc...
Personally if I were from a highly advanced alien race and i found a lesser advanced one I would be incredibly curious.

With their inability to be a threat to me I certainly would not waste any effort no matter how small to destroy them.
I would watch, listen and learn.

Even if the humans were of little interest there is an amazing amount of possibly unique life on this planet.
From plants that may cure illnesses or relieve symptoms to amazing animals that could be placed in zoo's.

Id say if anything the earth is probably a protected nature preserve until a time when one of the older races deem its time for official contact.