12-18-2011, 04:08 PM
Hi and Welcome to the Boards.
This is going to get preachy.... sorry.
I am a believer in God, Jesus and the idea of Salvation. I pray daily and I study the bible and other sacred texts 'often' - not daily, but 3-4 times a week.
I understand where you are coming from, most (NOT ALL) Christians condemn homosexuality out of hand based on doctrine, not really on understanding of the bible. Take Leviticus, where it tells us 'man shall not lay with man as with woman'. This is often taken out of context. That part of Leviticus was ticking off the 'sins' and 'abominations' of the worshipers of Moloch, a false God.
What is unknown to modern Christians, except those who go outside of the church for historical data, is that the Worshipers of Moloch had sexual rites and rituals where straight men would bugger each other in order to 'appease' Moloch. Straight men performing homosexual acts as a form of Idolatry - Idol Worship.
The Church(es) have taken great pains to hide the truth, to hide history.
EXAMPLE: Up-until the 1960's few people outside of archeologists knew of towns and cities where a penis was on display over every door and window - stone 'statues' of penises everywhere. No 'good person' in the western world knew of this highly sexual culture that all but worshiped the penis. The reason being is because our society has set high morals based on its take on what the Church has decided.
Homosexuality, as an act between two lovers is not condemned in the bible. No more than the act of sex between two straight lovers is condemned.
Ruth and Naomi were great lovers. If a non-brainwashed believer actually reads the story they come away thinking 'Lesbians'. Johnathan and David had a homosexual relationship. David and Johnathan proclaimed their love was beyond that of the love of women... Tell me that ain't gay.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm#rut lays it out.
Jesus met and blessed a gay couple: http://www.gaychristian101.com/Gay-Centurion.html That Centurion and his pais were most likely lovers. And that relationship was most likely uncommonly strong for the era due to the willingness of a Centurion to go to a person who was of the occupied nation (a big no-no for higher ups in Roman Military) to ask for 'help'.
There is much wrong with our modern English Translation of the Books and Letters that make up the Holy Bible. Most English translations are translated from the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate was the official Roman Church's Bible. It was authorized and 'sanctified' by the Church as accurate, however many bible scholars will tell you there are translation errors and even missing (edited for content) parts from older existent writings.
This goes way beyond the question of Homosexuality. The whole concept of hell is false doctrine - a false representation of what Jesus and the rest of the Bible Authors were talking about. The Lake of Fire in John of Patmos Revelation is not Hell. Hell is simply the grave - Hades, Sheol - a place of internment of the body. No man goes to heaven upon death (with only a few biblical accounts, such as the thieves hanging next to Jesus - they were given dispensation to join Christ in Heaven that very day). The rest of us die and molder in our grave until the final Trump, where we are adjudged, those of us found worthy (which is far many more than Christians will have you believe) will reside with Christ on the New Earth (nope, not in heaven). Those who have refused God - having known God, and willfully refuse him - not those 'misguided' by modern men to turn their backs on the whole idea of God because a filthy church has desecrated the idea of God. Not the Pagans who seek "God" via other paths (their hearts are true, they just don't believe the Christians' take).
In order to 'go to hell' one has to know that there is a God and willfully turn your back on God - then you are sent to oblivion, the Second and final death.
Homosexuality is not a sin. The only way it is 'made' into a sin is that the modern Christians have forbid homosexuals to marry. Thus Gays and Lesbians are forced to live outside the Law when it comes to Marriage. God does not punish people who are forced to live outside of His Law. He does, however, punish those who force others to break or defy His Holy Law.
Certain acts of homosexuality are sin. Promiscuity is one of them, sex for the sake of lust only, is a sin. Sex for the worship of False Gods (Idolatry), Sex for personal gain - No not prostitution per-se since most prostitutes do so to survive. These acts are condemned for both straight and gay/bi/lesbian people.
There are many well written authors on the subject of homosexuality and the Bible - those who see the bible as not condemning a loving, committed relationship between two people who are married in the eyes of God.
Marriage is consummated with a single act - sex. Trust me, Adam and Eve did not go before a priest and get the Church's and State's blessing, tax write offs and the like. They may have made personal vows to one another - however their 'act' of marriage was - sex. That whole cleaving of the soul act is an act of sex.
Anyone that has had loving, intimate sex understands the notion of two souls becoming 'cleaved' (bound) together.... Adam and Even did it, Ruth and Naomi did it, Johnathan and David did it and there is rumor that Jesus and Mary of Magdalene also 'cleaved one unto the other'.....
Up until the 20th century 'Common Law Marriage' was acknowledged in most places in the USA... It was understood (but not written down since no one talked about sex) that two people living together did certain things (sex) thus were 'Married in the Eyes of God'.
Marriage is consummated in the wedding bed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consummation
There are Gay Christians (LGBT) who have been given the new Word - a better 'Word' one that has been cleaned up and restored to some of its former Glory.
There are gay tolerant Churches. http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/f...church.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_epis.htm and the Episcopal Church. I went to seminary to become an Anglican Priest. Back then the Church frowned on homosexuals and homosexuality. There was a long history of Don't Ask, Don't Tell type policies for both clergy and laity. Through the decades, with many letters and strong words from men and women like myself, 'estranged' from the Church due to our convictions that as homosexuals we are not loved any less by God and Christ we have 'forced' change within the church community which is reflected in the way the church approaches the question of homosexuality.
Bishop Gene Robinson was elected bishop in 2003 in the Church. What makes this great news for LGBT people is that he is openly gay. He is the First bishop to be openly gay in the Episcopal Church.
The times are a changing, the stance on LGBT within the 'Christians Community' is in fact changing.
Yes there are the hard-nosed people like Ted Haggard, fine upstanding men who live their life day to day showing that God doesn't cotton to homosexuals. http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&...84&bih=609
Yes there are the minor groups like the Phelps Family that protest loud and long that God Hates.... This is a diminishing crowd as more and more people are won over to the more Loving Stance of Jesus. Unfortunately the Media is not focusing on the tolerance churches, but then the tolerant churches are not out their protesting and making a huge fuss and then getting caught in the act of hypocrisy...
None of this is to say you must be a Christian. I am only attempting to convey to you some 'facts' about LGBT and Christianity. There are many LGBT who have reconciled the false teaching of Doctrine when it comes to their homosexuality.
Just like the keeping of slaves was biblical and part of Christian culture - today no Christian would justify the keeping of slaves based on the Bible. Just like woman chained to the hearth is no longer considered 'biblically accurate' homosexuality is being liberated from the constraints of an old dying moral order which is slowly changing to be more ethical, open, tolerant and loving.
Its sort of ironic that the Man who preaches love and tolerance has had His Message twisted and turned and its taking 2000 years for us humans to 'get it'.
This is going to get preachy.... sorry.
I am a believer in God, Jesus and the idea of Salvation. I pray daily and I study the bible and other sacred texts 'often' - not daily, but 3-4 times a week.
I understand where you are coming from, most (NOT ALL) Christians condemn homosexuality out of hand based on doctrine, not really on understanding of the bible. Take Leviticus, where it tells us 'man shall not lay with man as with woman'. This is often taken out of context. That part of Leviticus was ticking off the 'sins' and 'abominations' of the worshipers of Moloch, a false God.
What is unknown to modern Christians, except those who go outside of the church for historical data, is that the Worshipers of Moloch had sexual rites and rituals where straight men would bugger each other in order to 'appease' Moloch. Straight men performing homosexual acts as a form of Idolatry - Idol Worship.
The Church(es) have taken great pains to hide the truth, to hide history.
EXAMPLE: Up-until the 1960's few people outside of archeologists knew of towns and cities where a penis was on display over every door and window - stone 'statues' of penises everywhere. No 'good person' in the western world knew of this highly sexual culture that all but worshiped the penis. The reason being is because our society has set high morals based on its take on what the Church has decided.
Homosexuality, as an act between two lovers is not condemned in the bible. No more than the act of sex between two straight lovers is condemned.
Ruth and Naomi were great lovers. If a non-brainwashed believer actually reads the story they come away thinking 'Lesbians'. Johnathan and David had a homosexual relationship. David and Johnathan proclaimed their love was beyond that of the love of women... Tell me that ain't gay.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm#rut lays it out.
Jesus met and blessed a gay couple: http://www.gaychristian101.com/Gay-Centurion.html That Centurion and his pais were most likely lovers. And that relationship was most likely uncommonly strong for the era due to the willingness of a Centurion to go to a person who was of the occupied nation (a big no-no for higher ups in Roman Military) to ask for 'help'.
There is much wrong with our modern English Translation of the Books and Letters that make up the Holy Bible. Most English translations are translated from the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate was the official Roman Church's Bible. It was authorized and 'sanctified' by the Church as accurate, however many bible scholars will tell you there are translation errors and even missing (edited for content) parts from older existent writings.
This goes way beyond the question of Homosexuality. The whole concept of hell is false doctrine - a false representation of what Jesus and the rest of the Bible Authors were talking about. The Lake of Fire in John of Patmos Revelation is not Hell. Hell is simply the grave - Hades, Sheol - a place of internment of the body. No man goes to heaven upon death (with only a few biblical accounts, such as the thieves hanging next to Jesus - they were given dispensation to join Christ in Heaven that very day). The rest of us die and molder in our grave until the final Trump, where we are adjudged, those of us found worthy (which is far many more than Christians will have you believe) will reside with Christ on the New Earth (nope, not in heaven). Those who have refused God - having known God, and willfully refuse him - not those 'misguided' by modern men to turn their backs on the whole idea of God because a filthy church has desecrated the idea of God. Not the Pagans who seek "God" via other paths (their hearts are true, they just don't believe the Christians' take).
In order to 'go to hell' one has to know that there is a God and willfully turn your back on God - then you are sent to oblivion, the Second and final death.
Homosexuality is not a sin. The only way it is 'made' into a sin is that the modern Christians have forbid homosexuals to marry. Thus Gays and Lesbians are forced to live outside the Law when it comes to Marriage. God does not punish people who are forced to live outside of His Law. He does, however, punish those who force others to break or defy His Holy Law.
Certain acts of homosexuality are sin. Promiscuity is one of them, sex for the sake of lust only, is a sin. Sex for the worship of False Gods (Idolatry), Sex for personal gain - No not prostitution per-se since most prostitutes do so to survive. These acts are condemned for both straight and gay/bi/lesbian people.
There are many well written authors on the subject of homosexuality and the Bible - those who see the bible as not condemning a loving, committed relationship between two people who are married in the eyes of God.
Marriage is consummated with a single act - sex. Trust me, Adam and Eve did not go before a priest and get the Church's and State's blessing, tax write offs and the like. They may have made personal vows to one another - however their 'act' of marriage was - sex. That whole cleaving of the soul act is an act of sex.
Anyone that has had loving, intimate sex understands the notion of two souls becoming 'cleaved' (bound) together.... Adam and Even did it, Ruth and Naomi did it, Johnathan and David did it and there is rumor that Jesus and Mary of Magdalene also 'cleaved one unto the other'.....
Up until the 20th century 'Common Law Marriage' was acknowledged in most places in the USA... It was understood (but not written down since no one talked about sex) that two people living together did certain things (sex) thus were 'Married in the Eyes of God'.
Marriage is consummated in the wedding bed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consummation
There are Gay Christians (LGBT) who have been given the new Word - a better 'Word' one that has been cleaned up and restored to some of its former Glory.
There are gay tolerant Churches. http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/f...church.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_epis.htm and the Episcopal Church. I went to seminary to become an Anglican Priest. Back then the Church frowned on homosexuals and homosexuality. There was a long history of Don't Ask, Don't Tell type policies for both clergy and laity. Through the decades, with many letters and strong words from men and women like myself, 'estranged' from the Church due to our convictions that as homosexuals we are not loved any less by God and Christ we have 'forced' change within the church community which is reflected in the way the church approaches the question of homosexuality.
Bishop Gene Robinson was elected bishop in 2003 in the Church. What makes this great news for LGBT people is that he is openly gay. He is the First bishop to be openly gay in the Episcopal Church.
The times are a changing, the stance on LGBT within the 'Christians Community' is in fact changing.
Yes there are the hard-nosed people like Ted Haggard, fine upstanding men who live their life day to day showing that God doesn't cotton to homosexuals. http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&...84&bih=609
Yes there are the minor groups like the Phelps Family that protest loud and long that God Hates.... This is a diminishing crowd as more and more people are won over to the more Loving Stance of Jesus. Unfortunately the Media is not focusing on the tolerance churches, but then the tolerant churches are not out their protesting and making a huge fuss and then getting caught in the act of hypocrisy...
None of this is to say you must be a Christian. I am only attempting to convey to you some 'facts' about LGBT and Christianity. There are many LGBT who have reconciled the false teaching of Doctrine when it comes to their homosexuality.
Just like the keeping of slaves was biblical and part of Christian culture - today no Christian would justify the keeping of slaves based on the Bible. Just like woman chained to the hearth is no longer considered 'biblically accurate' homosexuality is being liberated from the constraints of an old dying moral order which is slowly changing to be more ethical, open, tolerant and loving.
Its sort of ironic that the Man who preaches love and tolerance has had His Message twisted and turned and its taking 2000 years for us humans to 'get it'.
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
