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Why is F2F seen as socially acceptable but M2M is seen as evil?
Over the years I have discovered that lesbians are seen by most of the word to be more socially acceptable, if not completely natural, as if 2 women getting it on is just the most natural thing on earth. But just the thought of 2 men together makes people just foam at the mouth in disgust. Arguments get started over it, men have even died over it.

When ever a heated debate gets started about gay rights, marriage amendment or even the word homosexual is used, it seems that the only thing going through everyones mind is the image of it being 2 men. It is quite rare that when a debate gets going over gays, someone will mention women. 99 times out of 100 it is always men.

In a recent post on Facebook, I read a comment about gays. The man just keep referring to "the gay man", he never once mention anything about women. I felt compelled to comment on the subject, asking him right out; Are men the only gender than can be gay, what about women?

This was his reply, I have cut & paste his actual response because I did not want to sum it up, I felt you all needed to read what a straight black, self proclaimed minister felt about lesbians and gays.

" To respond to your other question about “Only men being gay”, I think it best to really analyze the nature of that question. Shane, have you ever wondered why that late on Friday night, at the conclusion of eating pizza and other barely healthy delicacies, as you sit in your pajamas, remote in hand and slumber approaching, you flip to Cinemax and see two scantily clad young ladies, coddling and caressing, tempting and touching each other to some mediocre soundtrack and foolish script, and you find yourself not basking in disgust, but more overcome by a quiet fascination? This is a sensation that we would not experience if the two young ladies in question were gentlemen. Shane, do you know why we as a society find the lesbian, as an institution as somewhere between playfully innocuous and only marginally offensive? Is it because she sits somewhere between our fantasy and fascination, or is it perhaps that outside of a few instances of role playing and the emulation of machismo, that she and her “partner” if you will, are not really DOING anything? In contrast, the gay man as an entity, carries the very definition of not only penetrating our minds and seemingly peaceful agenda of non intrusive campaigning, but he represents a full fledged occupancy, a forced occupancy no less of the very core of our perceptions of what should and should not be. Make no mistake Shane, if the lesbian, again, not on a couple by couple basis, but as an institution, is playfully benign, then the gay man is very much incurably malignant…at least so far as the way he promotes and presents himself to us. There are lessons in these observations for us Shane, but many of us refuse to attend class. We see fit more to roam the halls, instituting a permanent recess for whatever frail chances we have at better understanding the world around us. The lesbian sits in our culture, and on the cusp of our social structure, whimsically in between our own covert fantasies of mutated polygamy and unapologetic voyeurism, and a reality that is constantly reminding us that because she is woman, she will always have a place with us, even is she comes to us unclean, and not alone. In many ways her place in folklore is like that of the mermaid, the unicorn, the valkyrie, or so many other beautiful magical creatures elusive to us in reality, but fully attainable through allowing our fantasies to run amuck in a manner that we can taste, feel and touch. It is this fairytale-esque perception of her that has permanently granted her a place in the heart of man that is immovable. But Shane, the gay man, as an institution, has little value to ANYONE, but to the gay man. His agenda, his plight, his very musk is fashioned to facilitate one thing and one thing alone…that being his survival, under conditions where his survival is both a necessity and an improbability. So Shane, when I address “the gay man” as an institution during my seminars, it is not due to some willful exclusion of lesbians within the pantheon of our socio-cultural challenges; but born more of simply a matter of addressing the head of the household as opposed to an un-taxable constituency of occupants within that domicile. I hope this has been helpful"

I can only tell you what my straight friends have told me:

Straight men understand what two women find desirable and sexually attractive about each other because they themselves see the same things in each of the women. They cannot imagine what two men find desirable and sexually attractive in each other because they do not see anything of that nature about either man.

Straight women seem to have no trouble seeing what is attractive and desirable in another woman, even if they themselves are not attracted to and do not desire the woman but, they are a bit puzzled as to why a man wants another man when their body seems so much better suited to a man's body and, though they see why the man is "hot", they just can't get their mind around how we actually interact sexually and find pleasure in doing so.

How often have you heard straight female friend comment o the beauty, body or other attractive things about other women? Quite often I'd guess and, it's fine for women to notice those things.

What happens if you comment on a hot guy? Gasp, shock, why would you do that?

We simply draw more attention form the straight community than gay women do, so we end up being focused on more often and, somehow it's okay for a woman to see another woman as beautiful but, it isn't okay for a man to see another man as beautiful.

ceez Wrote:uuugghhhh, this is part of why I don't like going to church. most pastors have this holier than thou attitude and it sickens me. then they spout a bunch of hot air and through in some long words to sound intelligent. you know what I got out of that "blah blah blah...because women are hot...blah blah blah...gay sex is gross" two women turns him on because he's straight and anything a man does that might make him seem gay wrong. :mad:

The guy in my original post was not a preacher. He is trying to start up a cult of ex-Christians & gays. He wants me to be his token queer so I can get more gays to join.

BigCub Wrote:The guy in my original post was not a preacher. He is trying to start up a cult of ex-Christians & gays. He wants me to be his token queer so I can get more gays to join.

Oh, well then, this is kind of awkward:redface:

I grew up in and reside in the SF Bay Area...Gay men and Lesbians are very much accepted as normal....neither one more than the other.

I am only responding to the question in the title. The text in blue sounds like a mind f*ck to me and I avoid that crap...life is too short.

An FYI...usually people who are homophobic are also sexist and maybe they dont' consider lesbians because they dont' respect women anyway and objectify them and see them as tools instead of human beings.

East Wrote:I grew up in and reside in the SF Bay Area...Gay men and Lesbians are very much accepted as normal....neither one more than the other.

I am only responding to the question in the title. The text in blue sounds like a mind f*ck to me and I avoid that crap...life is too short.

An FYI...usually people who are homophobic are also sexist and maybe they dont' consider lesbians because they dont' respect women anyway and objectify them and see them as tools instead of human beings.

The majority of us did not grow up or have ever visited SF Bay Area, and for those of us over 35 did not grow up with gay men & lesbians being accepted as normal. Especially here in the south.

Even if that were the case, that does not explain why in most straight porn there is always a lesbian scene, in every straight magazine there is always 2 girls playing around, but you will never see in a straight porn or magazine 2 men in the same room unless they are tag teaming some woman, but the 2 men will NEVER touch each other.

The very first homosexual kiss on television & the movies was between 2 women, it was years later before censors would allow 2 men kissing on television or the movies.

But of course when they do show 2 women, they are always lipstick lesbians. It is rare to see lesbians portrayed as bull dykes unless for comedy purposes.

People are scared of what they don't understand.

Because women are less than men, and they are expected to make bad choices. We all know this son, After all the whole reason why mankind is not in the garden right now is because a woman made a bad choice and then tempted Adam.:tongue:

While few people admit to this philosophy of woman's place, the truth is that genderfication - the separation of the expectations of a person based on what does or does not hang between the legs - is hard wired into our traditional society, our whole civilization is founded on certain notions of what the differences between men and women are. Such as little girls are Pink and little boys are blue. Boys get sports equipment, girls get the easy bake oven.

Women only really got liberated in the 1970's and that was after being the slaves of man for oh ten thousand years.

For those ten thousand years (that we know of, its possibly a lot more), our whole civilization has evolved with certain notions about what it is to be a woman and what it is to be a man. Women are expected to be 'soft' (emotionally speaking) and may be a bit too close. But hey, nearly every straight man dreams of a three way with two hot babes - and lesbians only need a good enough man to make that dream come true. :tongue:

Women are still cast as the weaker sex, the fair sex, the gender who needs to be protected, cared for. Sure no one comes out and says 'Woman shut the pie whole and listen to your man.' anymore, but the behaviors, the expectations are still there for these male dominating female behaviors.

Men are not supposed to be soft. Everybody knows that if you are gay you are a sissy - sissy means less than a man - you are a girl. Doesn't matter if you stand 6'1" tall and weigh 250 pounds of pure muscle, can throw down with the best of them, hunt, work on cars, are hung like a horse - if you are a gay you are a sissy. End of story.

Real men ain't pansys, sissys, girly-girls, whatever other effeminate sounding word you can throw out there. The idea that a man can accept or give sex with/to another man emasculates common decent 'real' men.

Please to note, the common complaint about gays is that they all are bottoms (get their fudge packed) and that they all perform anal sex. This strikes a cord of the female passive role where a man is inserting into you. No one every relates 'gay' with a masculine top except people who are LGBT. No one seems to care that the majority of gay males actually prefer oral sex over anal - the assumptions remain strong that gay=anal=female.

Women don't have to struggle with this whole 'have to be a man no matter what' idiotology, erm, ideology and the myth-conceptions of what being a 'real man' is all about.

While your calendar might read 2012, I fear that socially our species is stuck in or around 1612 when it comes to gender roles and sexuality.

Ok that part in blue from the OP, the part from this Facebook "guru" is utter bullshit! I know several straight men who are not attracted to the "lesbian porn" scene. I read all of that and thought I was listening to some wannabe psychologist spouting off about his latest mind f**k theory! I hate it when people use a thesis to get their point across to try and make themselves sound smart than their ignorant ass really is!

This has always been a double-standard that got under my skin too.....and after 20 years of on-and-off chats with str8 guys winto F/F porn, i got my answer - with F/F sex, there's no real Dom/Sub dynamic. If women want penetration, they have to use a toy - and a toy isn't a penis - so the sexual "roles" aren't compromised like they are with M/M sex.

you see, alot of str8 men have a big problem getting their heads around the concept of "recieving" during sex. They see the bottom as taking a feminine role - something that goes against millions of years of genetic coding! With F/F sex, it's softer, and does not conflict with their masculinity!

this can be seen at play with bi sex movies. Find a str8 buddy and show him a F/F scene and then show a scene with two M/F couples who end up going M/M and F/F - the str8 guy will avert his eyes when the camera shows the bi/gay male sex and will focus on the 2 women together!

It's a sexual "role" issue and something that has been, and will be, around for a long time. It sucks, but yes, it is reality.

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