May I rant on your shoulder please?

[Bowyn Aerrow]

When the waves start to pull back that's how you know the tsunami is only minutes away. When the time comes seek shelter on higher ground. GS, is just one of your many shelters. Don't let the tsunami take you down with it. It isnt over till itsover.

Actually I was thinking of going down to the beach and wait... Let the wave carry me where it wants.

It seems like that would be much easier than trying to think through and come up with 'rational' 'reasonable' balanced solutions.

[Maverick]

Bowyn,

You shouldn't have to compromise or make concessions. Even if past personal experience tells you otherwise, there are "good" people out there who are honest, who don't cheat, and who would give someone like you the respect you deserve. Believe me, they are out there.

I really hope this experience, no matter how it leaves you emotionally (now and in the future), that it doesn't scar you deep enough that you will never trust again. This is a typical reaction, but please fight it with all your might. The reason I say this, because the next person you fall in love with (and yes, even after this you might NOT want to ever allow yourself to love again, but I hope you will...) deserves the benefit of the doubt. It will not be fair to him (or you) to always be wondering, waiting and thinking he will do the same thing. Don't fall into that trap. In general, people are good, and typically trustworthy.

You've just had a really bad run with the "smaller population" of guys that you can't trust. You already know about a similar situation I had with a "cheater", so like a close friend to me said; "Don't allow this experience to affect you in such a way that you cannot trust again." Easy for me to dish out this advise, I know, much harder to "allow" yourself to be vulnerable again and trust someone.

Keep us posted, you have a lot of people who care for you...

[Bowyn Aerrow]

I am so sorry David

If I had to guess about why you are so cut off from you emotions , I would say that right now you are numb,with the exception of revolt, that is.

It worries me that this has been going on for so long, and makes wonder how much longer this would have continued if you had not have discovered it.
What worries me more is that he lied in couples therapy as well.

14 years is a very long time to be together, you may not feel that you love him, but
when the dust settles, those feeling have a nasty way of popping their head back up.

I don't want you beating yourself up over this ,you did nothing to deserve this , no one deserves betrayal, do not allow negative thoughts in, and never play the "What If" game.

Eventually you will have to work through this and let forgiveness in for your sake not his.I know one thing you will really need to work hard on trusting someone again.

I guess my biggest concern is .Can you forgive him?
And if you do forgive him , will you be able to stop yourself from bringing it up during the heat of the moment argument?

Always here for you my friend.

One of the things that keeps going through my mind is "What has changed this past fortnight?".

Up until very recently I had little 'issues' with this relationship. I saw clear vision of us as an old couple. No it has not been a perfect relationship, as with other couples we have our points of angst and discontent. But is has been a relatively quiet and peaceful relationship.

As far as I can tell the only difference is now I know.

Forgiveness and forgetting are two different beasts. As you may know about 2 years into our relationship he 'relapsed' with speed and went to visit his ex, having marathon sex (and more). Of course right after the relapse he didn't tell me the 'truth'. That would come out about 5 years later.

So for 7 years (at least) I have managed to not throw that one up in his face every-time I feel a bit pissy.

The thought does cross my mind every time when I get angry. Also, every time there has been a problem with medication, doctors, or other HIV related 'stuff' I want to so badly scream 'We wouldn't be in this mess if you had kept your pants on!'

But that was a different situation. I viewed the whole sex part of as being part of his addiction to meth. His drug of choice speed, his tweak of choice sex. So I was able to 'forgive' to a degree because this was relapse not really 'cheating'.

This time is different, unless I am horribly mistaken and no longer can tell when someone is tweaking (on speed) then these 'episodes' are not drug related.

Hmmm. As I wrote that the brain suddenly started running old picture shows of when I thought his behavior was a little tweaky. Eyes a tad too bright, speech a little to fast. His 'insomnia' of the past three years.... Hmmmm.

Also he has lost a bit of weight too...

Actually I think he may be using again now that I think of it.

Or maybe I'm just seeing devils because I'm looking so hard for them.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Bowyn,

You shouldn't have to compromise or make concessions. Even if past personal experience tells you otherwise, there are "good" people out there who are honest, who don't cheat, and who would give someone like you the respect you deserve. Believe me, they are out there.

I really hope this experience, no matter how it leaves you emotionally (now and in the future), that it doesn't scar you deep enough that you will never trust again. This is a typical reaction, but please fight it with all your might. The reason I say this, because the next person you fall in love with (and yes, even after this you might NOT want to ever allow yourself to love again, but I hope you will...) deserves the benefit of the doubt. It will not be fair to him (or you) to always be wondering, waiting and thinking he will do the same thing. Don't fall into that trap. In general, people are good, and typically trustworthy.

You've just had a really bad run with the "smaller population" of guys that you can't trust. You already know about a similar situation I had with a "cheater", so like a close friend to me said; "Don't allow this experience to affect you in such a way that you cannot trust again." Easy for me to dish out this advise, I know, much harder to "allow" yourself to be vulnerable again and trust someone.

Keep us posted, you have a lot of people who care for you...

Generally people are good.

I could tell you things, terrible things. Things I have seen and witnessed, the things people have confessed to me. I got to walk on the 'dark side' during the years of ministry.

I saw with my own eyes what people are capable of. Homeless shelters, Polk Street... Was just the tip of that iceberg. Working as a front desk clerk at a zero star hotel that rented rooms by the hour I got to see a shooting, public abuse and even the horrors that 'johns' can do to prostitutes in the rented rooms.

Confession may be good for the soul of the confessor, it is a terrible poison for the one who listened to the confession.

My own personal relationships with such winners is nothing compared to the rest of the things I saw and heard.

So no, I do not see people as generally good. Sure I play lip service to that idea, I even say 'Humans are basically harmless' - But I know better. I just don't have the heart to take the blinders off of people.

[princealbertofb]

That's our whole human predicament... To be (good) or not to be (good).... :tongue:

[BobInTampa]

Boywn:

Just out of pure curiousity, can you share with us HOW he explained his actions? I know it might hurt re-hashing those discussions, but as i continue to read your replies to the posts here, i'm struck with what sounds like a very cavalier attitude on his part...like, "no i'm not cheating, well, ok, you caught me, yea, i did mess around a bit, well, actually, for the last 14 years i have been meeting a guy (or guys) for no-strings-attached sex when i have been out of town....but, i promise i won't do it again...yada, yada, yada."

I mean, did he give ANY expliaination? Was he fucking these guys before you 2 started dating and living together or was he just using the internet to "chat" and cruise and then just conspire to lie to you about where he was going so he could get his rocks off?

Oh, and was it the SAME guy over and over again for 14 years (the guy in san fran) or was it multiple guys.....i think the answer will shed some additional light on why you're feeling the way you do and also how his mind worked in attempting to justify what he was doing.

[Blue]

David, as an ex speed freak myself, you are wise to look for devils, as you put it, specifically a white, peanut butter or pink devil (or those funny light blue pills called hydrocodone or Lortab, or those big black capsules known as West Coast Turn Arounds or, Black Beauties.)

Were I in your place, I'd be using every trick in the book to see if he was using again. Borrow a bill, rub the center of it and see if your fingers taste bitter, look for blades or smaller pieces of crumpled foil. Is he drinking more fluids that usual, not eating as much, or eating lighter foods. Making sure he has bills in his pocket or wallet before going out, taking just a minute too long between flushing the toilet and washing his hands, or the water running just a bit too long while washing his hands? Has he had a nose bleed recently when he usually doesn't get them? Just a bit frigidity or jittery when he should be tired? Or my favorite, headache powders that have been refilled or mixed with the stuff. (and that one is near impossible to tell since BC and Goody's brand powders look and taste the same - the legal powders just don't numb like meth will.)

I know, if he has slipped, that puts things in a whole new light, but it's information you need to know, so, I've given you every trick that you might not have known, to look for. Might not change anything as far as your decision goes, but it's more information to use in making that decision.

For me, that would be the final straw, he'd be gone but, that's because I don't want that stuff around me and, I know to well the financial, emotional and physical damage it does to a person. I'd hate to see your limited income finance any part of that crap. Be careful, if he is using, you know what a speed driven bad reaction can be if you confront him once you know.

And yes based on just the little you posted, I think it's a very good possibility.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Boywn:

Just out of pure curiousity, can you share with us HOW he explained his actions? I know it might hurt re-hashing those discussions, but as i continue to read your replies to the posts here, i'm struck with what sounds like a very cavalier attitude on his part...like, "no i'm not cheating, well, ok, you caught me, yea, i did mess around a bit, well, actually, for the last 14 years i have been meeting a guy (or guys) for no-strings-attached sex when i have been out of town....but, i promise i won't do it again...yada, yada, yada."

I mean, did he give ANY expliaination? Was he fucking these guys before you 2 started dating and living together or was he just using the internet to "chat" and cruise and then just conspire to lie to you about where he was going so he could get his rocks off?

Oh, and was it the SAME guy over and over again for 14 years (the guy in san fran) or was it multiple guys.....i think the answer will shed some additional light on why you're feeling the way you do and also how his mind worked in attempting to justify what he was doing.

I'm uncertain if cavalier is the right word.

The way the discussion went was me asking a simple question waiting for a reply, then asking another simple question so on and so forth. Its not like I lectured him on everything I knew. I suppose at each turn he thought he could 'lie now' and not have to get deeper. Yet I kept on surprising him with new questions and then asking 'So can we check your email? Can we check the Manfinder? Do you mind if I check your cell phone?'

He denied the manfinder, and I asked about the emails on his account (Revealing that I have seen his emails) He back pedals and says, oh that is an old account... Then I asked, then why did one of the subject lines in your email said XXXXX... Indicating recent usage. He came up with another excuse - Then I asked if we can look at his Manfinder account, suddenly he decided it was best to tell me that yes he has been active on the account.

Does that mean you are sleeping around? "Oh no" says he. "So you don't mind if we check your cellphone messages/calls and ask guys you have talked too/messaged?"

"Oh well, I'm soo sorry, there was one.... But I have stopped seeing him!"

"Not according to what I have heard." ( I lied, I haven't heard anything).

He gets all quiet, then he starts confessing other guy, other dates...

I confess I lied a bit about how much I know, but then at that time I felt if lying is how he wants to do this then by all means I can play by these new rules.

Understand I usually don't pursue questions (normally no need for details), in this case my whole approach was perhaps alien to him compared to how I deal with other stuff over the past 14 years. I do write a lot, I rarely speak. So this whole David talking and asking so many questions was most likely something he didn't know how to deal with.

Since I rarely lie about stuff, he pretty much figured that I told the truth that I heard from others about his behaviors. Its not that I do not know how to lie, I can lie - expertly when the need arises. I choose not to live that way so stick to truths. He is used to me being a man of truth, not the prince of lies.

No, not the same guy. From what I pulled out of him there are 'many' guys. From what he said, he has had/been with about a dozen guys in the past year alone. How many for certain? When pressed his answer was "I can't remember"... So how many is that - I have no idea.

So is that dozens, scores, hundreds, thousands??? I don't know. And he is not going to give me a solid answer on the subject. He thinks about 30 over the past 14 years. If his score card of the past year is the average, then I would say over the past 12 years its more like 120....

I did get from him that this is an account he had before we met. I also get the impression that for the first year of our relationship he didn't sleep around. I know near the end of the second he went out, tweaked with his ex (and a few buddies at the same time) and had sex. From there I'm fuzzy on the details (He can't remember) exactly how and why he started 'dating' on the side.

He was doing it while he worked in the City. Lunch times were not his spending time at the desk doing 'free work' because he was behind on work. No he was busy meeting guys for lunch.

Instead of losing his pack-back on BART as he told me long ago, he confessed that he forgot it at a guy's house that he had been seeing a few times and the truth really is that that guy refused to give it back. Something about the guy thinking they were in a relationship. That back-pack contained my diamond ear ring (on loan for him to use since I had gotten irritated with all metals by then), it also contained his medicines and a change of work clothes and his wallet. Which had credit cards, ATM cards, stuff and we spent the next week or so worried over some stranger with his wallet, cancelling cards and checking to make certain no new charges we didn't make showed up on them.

All of those nights spent in the city (first Thursday of every month) where he was supposed to be going in early at work he didn't spend them at Blue's (No not our Blue here, Blue a gal-friend of his) he was actually spending them at bars and other places.

The night he supposedly got drunk at a work related party and one of his coworkers called to tell me, it didn't actually spend the night at her place, he spent it elsewhere and somehow managed to get Donna involved with the lie.

After being laid off, he had lots and lots of job interviews 'In the Bay Area'. A more than a few were early morning, the City is 105+ miles away, so he would spend it with Blue, or Donna or some other co-worker or person who obviously had no problem lying to my face because in truth he was spending it with Tom, Dick, Harold, Jacob or some other guy he met on line or wherever.

From the whole story I get the impression that he wanted to be 'faithful' at some point way back in the last century but just wasn't able to do it. I suspect now (now that I'm thinking about it) that he has been doing drugs and having sex. I also further suspect that he isn't just a drug addict, but also a sex addict as well.

But then I knew that he had had 'sexual experience' way back at the dawn of the relationship. He told me tales of his exploits as a meth addict and he told me about whips, chains, fists, dildos the size of small animals, gang bangs 'piss parties' :o, experiences at Club 88 (or 69 or something, a sex club in San Francisco). Orgy parties where the fun would be amped up with week long 'party N Play' sessions - meaning everyone is on meth and having sex for hours, days a week....

As I said before, His drug of choice is speed (meth, crystal) his 'tweak of choice' tweak being what a person does while on speed, was sex. His telling me about his sexual exploits was all part of his share to me about what his life on drugs was like.

Also understand I'm no saint. I had a thing for alcohol, oceans of alcohol and I did coke and crank and speed and the occasional bong hit, I dropped acid socially. My tweak of choice was Raves - then going home and getting on my knees and scrubbing floors as my OCD habit kicked in full swing. I tried sex with speed, I get what is called 'crystal dick' and inability to get an erection. No erection means no sex, so I didn't develop the sex thing as a tweak.

So I understood the addiction part, and I figured like with me and raves and excessive scrubbing, that as long as there is no speed involved those 'tweak' projects wouldn't happen.

We met through a local AA/NA group and since we were both clean and sober for at that point, it made sense that we would make a decent couple. I had two years clean, he was going on 18 months...

So the first night we spent talking all night long, we both shared our 'horror stories' in depth when it came to drugs/drink and other things.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

David, as an ex speed freak myself, you are wise to look for devils, as you put it, specifically a white, peanut butter or pink devil (or those funny light blue pills called hydrocodone or Lortab, or those big black capsules known as West Coast Turn Arounds or, Black Beauties.)

Were I in your place, I'd be using every trick in the book to see if he was using again. Borrow a bill, rub the center of it and see if your fingers taste bitter, look for blades or smaller pieces of crumpled foil. Is he drinking more fluids that usual, not eating as much, or eating lighter foods. Making sure he has bills in his pocket or wallet before going out, taking just a minute too long between flushing the toilet and washing his hands, or the water running just a bit too long while washing his hands? Has he had a nose bleed recently when he usually doesn't get them? Just a bit frigidity or jittery when he should be tired? Or my favorite, headache powders that have been refilled or mixed with the stuff. (and that one is near impossible to tell since BC and Goody's brand powders look and taste the same - the legal powders just don't numb like meth will.)

I know, if he has slipped, that puts things in a whole new light, but it's information you need to know, so, I've given you every trick that you might not have known, to look for. Might not change anything as far as your decision goes, but it's more information to use in making that decision.

For me, that would be the final straw, he'd be gone but, that's because I don't want that stuff around me and, I know to well the financial, emotional and physical damage it does to a person. I'd hate to see your limited income finance any part of that crap. Be careful, if he is using, you know what a speed driven bad reaction can be if you confront him once you know.

And yes based on just the little you posted, I think it's a very good possibility.

Until I replied to Mum's post I didn't connect drug use into this.

Yes he is eating less, the dogs have been getting more. He has been sleeping less (insomnia he says, the new HIV pills he is on - he has recently switched to new pills).

Since November (when he started at Target) to now he has been shedding pounds. He has lost about 30 pounds I would say. He tells me its because he works so much, stocking, collecting carts - thus is burning more calories. Of course he refused to take the packed lunches I make him 'forgets' them.

Fidgety yes. I have even asked him what is wrong as his leg swings madly back and forth... He blamed the pills (HIV pills along with an antidepressant the doctor recently put him on since these new pills cause depression).

He doesn't carry cash. A real irritating thing in my books. Everything from a pack of gum to a grocer's visit is put on the ATM Card.

As far as I know his meth habit is one of IV use (slamming). As an Ex slammer myself I can't see how snorting it would be as satisfying, the whole romancing the needle thing and then the rush - something you don't get with tabs, snorting, etc.

A few of weeks ago he came in the house and just stood there and for a brief moment I thought he was 'crashing'. You know, post tweak I gotta fall down and sleep. He said he felt a cold coming on then went to bed for 48 hours.

I didn't think much of it because his job had had him on recent weird shifts, going in late, staying until late, then having to go in at 9 the next day... Well he said work...

So yeah, there are potential symptoms.

I mulled over asking him while we was watching the DNC... I decided to just wait since he works tonight.

[Blue]

Okay, any of his med injections? If so start checking the leftovers. As for snorting vs. slamming, no you don't get that initial hit, but you still get the legs and, it is easier to hide than slamming so, I wouldn't rule it out. Same with pills, takes a bit and no rush, but the legs are there and, that's when the tweak happens.

You know as well as I do that even long days of hard work and a cold don't cause a 48 hour crash. Sorry man, but that's about a dead give away and you know it.

He SAID work, where's a copy of his schedule?

Now I will give him that some of it could be HIV related, but, not all of it. And him being positive bring up the whole "I've got a death sentence, so might as well live it up while I can." mentality thing as a possibility. Check the side effects of his HIV meds, and the interactions. He might be playing with fire more than he realizes, and I'd hate to see that fire burn you any worse than it already has.

This site has most of them, even the newer ones and, it gives detailed information about each one.
http://www.aidsmeds.com/list.shtml

I empathize with you, just making sure you have as much information as you can here. You can't be prepared for what might come if it blindsides you.