Use of the word marrage

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Oh Now it all makes sense, you are opposed to gay marriage because you are old and not used to the 21st century (and its technology):biggrin:. So I will type this all slowly so you can follow grandpa...:biggrin:

Take your time. No big hurry there.

[Eros]

Ah-ha!

I never implied that whatever the term we may use, let's pick one... Union?

I didn't read the other posts, but some of us want to get married, We are people too, we deserve the same rights, calling it an "union" would feel like we are abandoning the fight for equality, like giving up, that's how I see it, I will fight until every single contry supports same sex marriage, >:c

xoxo... lawl.

[pellaz]

in the US and other countries the state of "marriage" has benefits rights:
-tax status
-health and civil benefits
-legal benefits
-common property

anyways its the law of the land and an accepted new normal. consider how this effects people still in the closet here.

it also says something about couples that choose not to be married, they not totally committed to each other

human nature as it is; its another hoop to jump through if you want to break up. your legal status is married and are branded if you go out alone. gives the cheaters another guilt.

[cardiganwearer]

I've heard it said repeatedly that unions ruined this country, so I'm going for marriage.

[trialbyerror]

Oh Now it all makes sense, you are opposed to gay marriage because you are old and not used to the 21st century (and its technology):biggrin:. So I will type this all slowly so you can follow grandpa...:biggrin:

Take your time. No big hurry there.

hahahahahah :biggrin:

Naaaaa,

I be a wee bit older 'n that laddie

In my day, it was waaay simpler. We went out, beat some attractive dude over the head with a club and dragged it back to the cave.

Then we passed the time away counting fleas and other parasites. If what you brought home had more than you.... Well that rather simply settled who topped who..

Oh yes I remember now no such thing as gay..... We called guys into guys HE-MEN :biggrin::biggrin:

I'm penning my reply tomorow...
RGDS
Trial by error

[trialbyerror]

Hi all
Finally got round to this, sorry for delay, decided not to do it with quotes anyway.

Summary.
Not unexpectantly, the response here is somewhat different to when having this debate with heterosexuals, for whom the main issues revolve around encroachment on the their institution of marriage, IE Man / woman and children.

Seems that most of the concerns expressed here, is that using a different descriptive would exacerbate the perception that gay people are “second-class”, be detrimental, and not afford the same status / meaning as having one term IE marriage.

At the outset, I used the term “union” only to differentiate between same-sex partnerships and heterosexual partnerships, and not as a term that should be used.

My point of view.
I (and this is my personal opinion) don’t approve of the use of the term “marriage” to verbalise our relationship (Not because I’m old and don’t understand 21 Century technology, ). But because I believe this is the soft option, In the short term, it may well result in equality before the law but I doubt it will do much in the long term for equality before society. That will only materialise when we fight like hell for it.

By way of example
In our country, among many other’s, there are 2 big ethnic groups, The Zulu and the Xhosa

Both have different cultures, different rituals, different heritages, by and large they even support different political parties

Often there is violent conflict between them however neither dominates the other. As soon as one takes a swipe at the other, there is an immediate retaliation. At best they tolerate each other.

Why? Because both are equally strong… Kind of a Mexican stand-off. It ain’t cool, but it works.

Where the wheels come off
That is where I believe our plot falls apart. We don’t seem to have this fierce drive to create our own culture / heritage / identity.

Seems to me we would rather try to piggy-back and lay claim to equality (such as in using the term marriage) than to stand firm, create our own identity our own terminology, Icons, earn respect and eventually create heritage and fight like hell to make it equal.

It’s as hard as hell to argue a case for “equal before society” (read respect) if we don’t do anything to earn it

Admittedly, In SA, the political issues around same-sex have been negated. As you know our rights to equality are protected in the constitution, and therefore we are already streets ahead in as much that we are "equal before the law".

But make no mistake, the words “sexual orientation” where only included because the rights of all had to be included, not out of a sudden feeling of kinship for gays.

Make no mistake. It does not sit well with the current government, who would just as soon remove it where it possible.

And what do we do to justify this precious concession? This political “hot-potato”?

On an individual basis, a bit here and a bit there.

But as a collective? Nothing much of consequence.

We have all the resources other groups can only dream of.

We are well placed: - Doctors / lawyers / advocates / Judges / businessmen / advisors at the highest echelons of government. / teachers / engineers / architects you name it, were in there.

Money abounds, pink money is hugely powerful.

Yet as a collective, we just don’t seem to be able to harness these resources and channel them for the greater good.

Meanwhile children languish in welfare, we have a huge problem with child-headed households, our education system’s falling apart (avr of 22% pass rate at university and 600 000 children starting school every year don’t finish).

There is so much that can be done to earn respect and legitimacy in society…

What do we do?
We’are keen to dance like clowns through the streets on “pride”... (Hell I hate that event)..

I hope this debate is a wee bit of food for thought, It’s not intended to anger

RGDS
Trial by error

[joseph]

there is some very very stupid peple. very stupid

[trialbyerror]

Hi Joseph

there is some very very stupid peple. very stupid (Sorry, I've still got quoting issues)

Thanks for weighing in on this.

Won't you be a bit more specific? Who are you referring to? This will give that person the opportunity to debate with you.

Thanks
Trial by error

[Pix]

Not unexpectantly, the response here is somewhat different to when having this debate with heterosexuals

Lots of heterosexuals either support us or don't care enough one way or another.

What do we do?
We’are keen to dance like clowns through the streets on “pride”... (Hell I hate that event).. )r

"We" are not a hive mind, and even those of us who do celebrate pride parades (btw, they exist for good reasons) doesn't mean that we aren't therefore caring about anything else. You statement (especially with the "pink dollar" and "resources others can only dream of" comments) also implies that all gays are rich and thus don't know "real problems" which is also false (if I'm magically vested with wealth and resources for being gay then where's my share?). This is just dysfunctional thinking on your part. (Btw, not everyone acts like clowns, at least no more than any other parade, but the media does focus on the most flamboyant parts, as always, in which others then assume is "normal" rather than most sensational.)

Oh, and btw, even if some "gay organization" were to stand up for some unrelated cause it wouldn't earn respect in society (it's done very little for surfers, bikers, etc, who take such action, and for gays it would be even more futile). Homelessness isn't a gay issue, it's a human issue, and the thought that gays wouldn't work with everyone else who help in other ways is absurd (which they do, I've volunteered to help the homeless myself), and if they said "You have to be gay to work with us" then haters (whom you seem to have mistaken for "heterosexuals" rather than a specific group of people that actually includes others gays among the haters, or at least quislings) would call that reverse prejudice and use it to justify their own exclusion of us, other charities would point out they're competing instead of helping (as charities often compete for grants & donors in order to maximize what they can do), and many refuse to support a charity that's not Christian (and charities have refused to accept donations from public atheists, etc), so surely that would be worse if it were a GAY charity. And gods help the charity if they were helping homeless youth (as many gay kids, including myself, have spent time as), as that would just be seen as "grooming kids for sexual abuse and/or indoctrinating the straight kids among them into homosexuality" and be boycotted at best, and probably harassed by both the law and street vigilantes.

[trialbyerror]

Dear Pix
Wow! An entire smorgasbord of things you brought up which truly deserve their own debates.

Looking forward to engaging with you on any one of them that you choose to start, You really do seem to be a wee bit miffed about something...

Now back to the topic.....

RGDS
Trial by error