I remember this campaign, Go Iggy!
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My personal view:
Masculine or feminine, as long as he is a good top, he could wake up to fresh homemade toast and jam with me… :p
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Ok so i'm totally annoyed by this post as it's really shown how much internalized homophobia and deep misogyny lies within the Gay community to this day. WHY ARE YOU STILL SO SCARED!!!???!!!
please wake up and stop pretending that labeling yourself "straight acting" makes you any less GAY and will make you any more likeable to the homophobes out their who will hate you simply because you love a man and/or because you don't act like the socially constructed idealism that is one.
that feeling of fear or disdain you get when you see a feminine man behaving feminine is purely because you haven't fully come to terms with who you are and what you are about on some level. Next time your stomach is ignited with the fires of anxiety at the moment you become aware of "Jacob" and his effeminate mannerisms, STOP, take a deep breath and realize that you too are a homosexual and you are basically no different than him. He loves, you love....and just maybe you might find some steamy love together. (lol)
All kidding aside i find it rather ridiculous when people use the terms "Straight Acting" or "Low Key" because at the end of the day if you aren't willing to be open and up front about your life and relationships you are no more than a scared child living in the shadows. When people say things like "if i wanted to date someone feminine i'd date a girl" or "i'm so NOT attracted to feminine men because (blah blah blah insert misogynistic statement here)" It sounds like to me "I'm incredibly uncomfortable with my own sexuality and how my peers and society in general will perceive me, therefore i need to fit a social standard that makes absolutely no sense in order to feel accepted".
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Axanderb,
You make several valid points, so I'm going to say this as nicely as I can. You seem to be assuming way too much about a very large and diverse group of guys.
I agree that labels such as "straight acting" and "low key" are silly. I don't call myself either of those things; I call myself masculine (because I am). This fact does not - in any way, shape, or form - make me afraid to identify as gay. Both are equally important ingredients in making me who and what I am.
I also know and have previously known many feminine guys, including one of my late cousins (who died of AIDS). Just as with their masculine counterparts, many of these guys are truly awesome human beings. I just never had any desire at all to have sex with any of them: when I meet a feminine guy who knows I'm gay, the thought of sex just never seems like something I want to do. To accuse every guy like me of being homophobic or misogynistic is itself a phobic statement. As you said, the feminine man loves, and I love. This does not mean that we have to love each other in particular.
I don't claim to know why my attractions work this way, and in fact there may not be a "reason" for it at all. But it is a part of me that, along with my masculinity, is just as fundamental as my being gay. In the final analysis, if you're going to be a tolerant individual, you have to accept that other people are turned on and off by different things, regardless of whether anyone thinks they should be. It goes back to "one size does not fit all."
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Okay, so simply because I have never had much contact with gay men before; why does it seem like nearly all are NOT attracted to the fem guys?
Just seems rather bizarre to me, or else many are too afraid to admit they like the fem guys. Then again, perhaps I have been sitting in the closet so long that I am only interested in a decent guy, no matter whether masculine or feminine. Quite frankly neither scares me as long as he has the right parts.
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davearoo Wrote:Axanderb,
You make several valid points, so I'm going to say this as nicely as I can. You seem to be assuming way too much about a very large and diverse group of guys.
I agree that labels such as "straight acting" and "low key" are silly. I don't call myself either of those things; I call myself masculine (because I am). This fact does not - in any way, shape, or form - make me afraid to identify as gay. Both are equally important ingredients in making me who and what I am.
I also know and have previously known many feminine guys, including one of my late cousins (who died of AIDS). Just as with their masculine counterparts, many of these guys are truly awesome human beings. I just never had any desire at all to have sex with any of them: when I meet a feminine guy who knows I'm gay, the thought of sex just never seems like something I want to do. To accuse every guy like me of being homophobic or misogynistic is itself a phobic statement. As you said, the feminine man loves, and I love. This does not mean that we have to love each other in particular.
I don't claim to know why my attractions work this way, and in fact there may not be a "reason" for it at all. But it is a part of me that, along with my masculinity, is just as fundamental as my being gay. In the final analysis, if you're going to be a tolerant individual, you have to accept that other people are turned on and off by different things, regardless of whether anyone thinks they should be. It goes back to "one size does not fit all."
Please note that i never mentioned masculine identifying gay men in my original post anywhere. Re read it and you will see that i'm not talking about masculine men. I'm talking about men who Identify as "straight acting" or "low key" and make comments like the ones i listed.
If you are not attracted to feminine guys that's perfectly fine. However if you use your lack of attraction as an excuse to poke jabs at, and demean feminine men...then you are quite basically a shit head. This is called misogyny. (baseless hatred or fear of the feminine or the feminized). When i was still in the closet/fresh out of the closet i was very anxious and scared around gay men who acted in a feminine manner because i was a misogynistic ass hat who had been programmed by society to believe that the "feminized" should be shunned, feared, and ridiculed. Well i woke up.
Also...your constant inclusion of "who died of aids" after mentioning feminine gay men you used to know makes you sound ignorant. What does them dying of aids have anything to do with them being feminine. *HINT* nothing *HINT* Two completely seperate topics. This language is what i'm talking about when i say Internalized homophobia. You may not realize that what you are saying is problematic but it is.
I don't mean to sound callous and I hope you don't take my tone as an attack but i'm fed up with people who can't come to terms with themselves and therefore take it out on others. I'm not boxing you into that category but if you partake in the behaviors i outlined you should definitely work towards changing them. You'll A.) be a better person and B.) like yourself a lot more.
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Axanderb Wrote:Please note that i never mentioned masculine identifying gay men in my original post anywhere. Re read it and you will see that i'm not talking about masculine men. I'm talking about men who Identify as "straight acting" or "low key" and make comments like the ones i listed.
If you are not attracted to feminine guys that's perfectly fine. However if you use your lack of attraction as an excuse to poke jabs at, and demean feminine men...then you are quite basically a shit head. This is called misogyny. (baseless hatred or fear of the feminine or the feminized). When i was still in the closet/fresh out of the closet i was very anxious and scared around gay men who acted in a feminine manner because i was a misogynistic ass hat who had been programmed by society to believe that the "feminized" should be shunned, feared, and ridiculed. Well i woke up.
Also...your constant inclusion of "who died of aids" after mentioning feminine gay men you used to know makes you sound ignorant. What does them dying of aids have anything to do with them being feminine. *HINT* nothing *HINT* Two completely seperate topics. This language is what i'm talking about when i say Internalized homophobia. You may not realize that what you are saying is problematic but it is.
I don't mean to sound callous and I hope you don't take my tone as an attack but i'm fed up with people who can't come to terms with themselves and therefore take it out on others. I'm not boxing you into that category but if you partake in the behaviors i outlined you should definitely work towards changing them. You'll A.) be a better person and B.) like yourself a lot more.
Actually, misogyny is the hatred of women specifically, not hatred of the feminine. However, I agree with your assertion that people who ridicule and demean feminine men are shitheads. For the record, I don't remember ever having behaved this way (although I possibly could have a decade or two ago), and I certainly wouldn't behave that way today.
As for my cousin, I can't very well say "he was a great guy" (he was) without mentioning that he's now dead. Otherwise, it sounds like he became an asshole. And once I've stated that he's dead, some people are likely to want to know how he died. Does that imply he contracted aids because he was feminine? Of course not. Does it have anything to do with any other feminine man? Again, no. And once again, I think you're reading too much into other people's words. I don't take your tone as an attack, but I think you'll feel a lot less stress if you work on taking what people say at face value.
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Why is it we can't talk truth about the dead? Why? Do the dead suddenly stop being assholes and magically become 'good decent people' upon death?
My brother died from aids, his lover died from aids, my Momma (a real lady, although my momma was a black man) died from complications from aids. I know way to many people who died from AIDS or complications from the disease - not all of them were effeminate, not all of them were actually gay either.
Us older people who are older than 30 lived through the Plague days. When we hand over the tidbit 'and he died from Aids' it is a reflection of the times we lived in, the horror of the plague, the great greif we recall as many of our friends were diagnosed with HIV then AIDS in the time before 'treatments' when HIV as a 100% certain death sentence.
It is not a reflection of their role in bed, or their behaviors. It is a reflection of the sudden appearance of a new, deadly virus that utterly changed what it was to be gay.
Back when I was a kid wearing condoms was never considered. There was no need for a condom. Condoms were ONLY protection from pregnancy. Straight couples used them, Gay men - we didn't need them.
HIV/AIDS changed us - our porn was the first to show condom use - not because federal law demanded it, but because our culture understood a need to teach condom use. The straight are having to be ordered by the government to wear condoms in porn productions - why? because HIV/Aids is still considered the 'Gay disease'.
You can't possibly conceive of our world. So stop fucking judging us. You were not there and you can't understand us.
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I choose to adopt a more progressive and broader definition of the term misogyny as someone w/ very Feminist views.
I get what you're saying Bowynn. But when a sentence is started as "I also know and have previously known many feminine guys, including one of my late cousins" and end the sentence with "(Who died of Aids)" it looks bad. And please don't try to tell me it doesn't. Especially with the topic at hand this is a problematic statement combining two unrelated topics.
"It is not a reflection of their role in bed, or their behaviors. It is a reflection of the sudden appearance of a new, deadly virus that utterly changed what it was to be gay."
you even say so here yourself.
I took everything read as face value which is why they got the reactions they received and needed to be further explained deeper into the conversation. I have no tonal context, and no body language to read. I'm not judging anyone...I'm calling out problems.
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Axanderb Wrote:I choose to adopt a more progressive and broader definition of the term misogyny as someone w/ very Feminist views.
I get what you're saying Bowynn. But when a sentence is started as "I also know and have previously known many feminine guys, including one of my late cousins" and end the sentence with "(Who died of Aids)" it looks bad. And please don't try to tell me it doesn't. Especially with the topic at hand this is a problematic statement combining two unrelated topics.
"It is not a reflection of their role in bed, or their behaviors. It is a reflection of the sudden appearance of a new, deadly virus that utterly changed what it was to be gay."
you even say so here yourself.
I took everything read as face value which is why they got the reactions they received and needed to be further explained deeper into the conversation. I have no tonal context, and no body language to read. I'm not judging anyone...I'm calling out problems.
I could say, "I choose to adopt a more progressive and broader definition of the term asshole to include you. Please note that I'm not insulting or judging you...I'm calling out problems."
The reason I choose not to make statements like this is that they add no value to the discussion whatsoever.
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Feminine Guys
