Full face veil

[Spellbound]

I won't deny that many muslim women are coerced into wearing veils but I'd also like to point out that plenty of them choose to wear it. Sure, you could make the case that this will of theirs is purely based on indoctrination but nevertheless some of them even argue pretty eloquently in regards to this problem. Please listen to the words of this woman, for example:




It makes no sense to ban a certain outfit for muslim women in the name of equality, at least not to me. Of course it's despicable when women are forced to wear them but I find it equally despicable to tell a muslim woman who uses the veil as a way of expressing her religion and in some cases identity, that she cannot do so.

Think about it this way: if women were not indocrinated into their religion at an early age, and were given a free choice at age 18, how many would choose to live their lives in a black tent? Not very many. This is a just a way for women to be subjugated by their fathers, brothers and husbands.

If some women find such a ban uncomfortable, then so be it; women have found many things uncomfortable down the years in their fight for equality, ever since they chained themselves to the railings. With respect, apologists like yourself don't help.

[SolemnBoy]

Think about it this way: if women were not indocrinated into their religion at an early age, and were given a free choice at age 18, how many would choose to live their lives in a black tent? Not very many. This is a just a way for women to be subjugated by their fathers, brothers and husbands.

If some women find such a ban uncomfortable, then so be it; women have found many things uncomfortable down the years in their fight for equality, ever since they chained themselves to the railings. With respect, apologists like yourself don't help.

I think the woman in the video was a convert; in other words, the indoctrination argument doesn't apply in her case. Furthermore, the act of outlawing a certain kind of clothing, to me, is way too authoritarian to not bring forth downright frightening associations.

What exactly would a ban accomplish? I know the initial topic was not regarding a complete ban but rather certain exceptions that may arise, but I feel as though the debate has moved on to more general grounds. I'm sort of curious what the women on this forum think about the whole veil debate, does anyone feel like clarifying their stance?

Here are a few quotes from a CNN article featuring French muslim Oumkheyr:

"I wear the burqa for the simple reason that I am a Muslim and the Koran says that I must wear the full veil in order to be modest. I am proud of my Muslim faith and my modesty. I am proud to follow God's law. Nobody ever forced me to wear the full veil and I have been wearing it for around 10 years now."

"I don't have a husband and I practice my religion freely, that's why I'm always shocked when people say it's the husband who forces his wife to wear a burqa."

"It is actually the case that a lot of men in France do not wish their wives to wear the full veil because when they go out, they are insulted or attacked and their husbands don't want them to be put in that situation."

"I first started wearing the full veil when I was a teenager but I stopped for a while because when you're young, you don't want to be set apart, you want to look like everyone else. But later after seeing what was happening with terrorist attacks involving Muslims all over the world, I decided to become more conscious and find out more about my faith."

"I obey the laws of God not the laws of man."

Apparently, whether the Quran actually advocates the use of veils or not is subject to heated debate but obviously this woman has made an interpretation as such and chosen to live accordingly.

[VileKyle]

Think about it this way: if women were not indocrinated into their religion at an early age, and were given a free choice at age 18, how many would choose to live their lives in a black tent? Not very many. This is a just a way for women to be subjugated by their fathers, brothers and husbands.

If some women find such a ban uncomfortable, then so be it; women have found many things uncomfortable down the years in their fight for equality, ever since they chained themselves to the railings. With respect, apologists like yourself don't help.

At what point does it stop being culture and start being indoctrination? I think the two can easily be confused. It's not the result that defines it, whether or not you like the result or not. Instead it's how that result got there. In this case, they are using their veils as a cultural device to define themselves. It's entirely their choice. They aren't just doing what they've been told to do, which would be the result of indoctrination.

It's also entirely wrong to ban someone's culture. Just because their culture does not originate in your country, does not make it wrong. They are different from you. So what? They have that right just as much as I have the right to wear a hotdog on my head if I fucking feel like it.

[Spellbound]

Why don't you read what I said? Most women who wear the veil are coerced into it by their upbringing; if there are those who choose to do it of their own free will, that is of course their choice, but they are in a tiny minority. There is a huge battle to be had to liberate women from such first millenium religious and cultural practices, and it sounds like you're on the side of the oppressors.

[VileKyle]

Why don't you read what I said? Most women who wear the veil are coerced into it by their upbringing; if there are those who choose to do it of their own free will, that is of course their choice, but they are in a tiny minority. There is a huge battle to be had to liberate women from such first millenium religious and cultural practices, and it sounds like you're on the side of the oppressors.

So you know these women?

Also, it sounds to me like you are making this more about the Muslim religion/culture than the women themselves. I find it hard to believe that you of all people would make this about the women, especially when you specifically have issues with this religion. Biased much?

[SolemnBoy]

But surely a ban is just counter-productive when it comes to liberating women who are forced to wear these veils. Any man who'd force his wife to wear an oppressive gown must hold beliefs that border on or even cross the line onto fundamentalism. The kind of man who believes his wife is a filthy whore for neglecting her duty to wear the veil. If a ban occurred he would still be forcing his wife and daughters to wear the veils and suddenly they are trapped between abuse from their family and problems with the law. This is far from a proper solution.

[Spellbound]

But surely a ban is just counter-productive when it comes to liberating women who are forced to wear these veils. Any man who'd force his wife to wear an oppressive gown must hold beliefs that border on or even cross the line onto fundamentalism. The kind of man who believes his wife is a filthy whore for neglecting her duty to wear the veil. If a ban occurred he would still be forcing his wife and daughters to wear the veils and suddenly they are trapped between abuse from their family and problems with the law. This is far from a proper solution.

It would certainly be difficult it those circumstances, but as I said, women have the right to self determination. By banning the veil you are saying that they have that right.

[Spellbound]

So you know these women?

Also, it sounds to me like you are making this more about the Muslim religion/culture than the women themselves. I find it hard to believe that you of all people would make this about the women, especially when you specifically have issues with this religion. Biased much?

What do you mean, me of all people? And I have issues with all religions, not just Islam.

[SolemnBoy]

No, by banning it you're saying they have to refrain from wearing it. That's got nothing to do with self determination. Giving them self determination would be saying "you have the right to wear it if you want to".

[VileKyle]

What do you mean, me of all people? And I have issues with all religions, not just Islam.

That's exactly what I mean. You're using this to attack the religion. You don't give a damn about the women. Honestly, they have all the right in the world to wear a veil if they damn well please. Banning them from wearing their choice in clothing is downright ridiculous. You may say it's indoctrination, but banning it still bans others from wearing it. That's when the ban becomes discrimination.