Is EU's policy towards Ukrainian gays correct?

[Flowerist]

Ukraine is now doing its best to sign associated agreement with the EU, however one of the main conditions there is that Ukraine has to sign an antidiscrimination law. On the one hand this is no bad thing because such conditions must be for every country striving to join EU. We're just obliged to render whatever assistance to sexual minorities who try to defend their rights.
But on the other hand we should also take into account public opinion of the country. In Ukraine for that matter almost 90% of population has negative attitude towards gays, therefore by raising the issue EU only draws attention to them. Now fancy that the agreement is not signed because of the gays... they would not be able to go out without fear for their lives!
So what do you think about it? Should we keep on pressing Yanukovich or not?

[partis]

In brazil where LBGT rights have improved so much, still faces a backlash, from all those who felt they had no say in the matter and the government went "over there heads" thus on the surface of things, brazil is a haven for LGBT, wheras in reality, theres like, one homophobic attack a week.

My fear is if this antidiscrimination act comes into being, it,ll be more "fuel" for them that hate us. Like, the more rights we have, the more they hate us.

[Pix]

I don't know enough about the EU to say. IF it's ONLY goal is to create a common market with common money to presumably create economic stability then it's most efficient to stick with that and leave the activism to others. OTOH, if the mission of the EU goes beyond that in an attempt to create social & political stability in addition to economic AND they don't wish to include (and thus enable) those known for grievous rights violations then it's perfectly right to insist its standards be met, and it would be up to the Ukraine to decide whether the EU was worth giving up its institutionalized bigotry for or not. In any case the Ukraine should not be given special privileges because that would set a precedent that can undo all that they've worked for, including in countries that already joined the EU.

That said, it's already bad to be gay in the Ukraine right now. And the anger over gays will also be directed at government, and while the government wouldn't care to enforce protection for gays it WOULD come down on those who work against its interests or even threaten too loudly to. If they're smart the vigilantes and gay bashers would silently target only those gays who tried to use the legal protection but Ukrainians have a reputation for being too prone to anger while not being that bright (at least that's a Russian prejudice anyway).

[Evan]

OTOH, if the mission of the EU goes beyond that in an attempt to create social & political stability in addition to economic AND they don't wish to include (and thus enable) those known for grievous rights violations then it's perfectly right to insist its standards be met, and it would be up to the Ukraine to decide whether the EU was worth giving up its institutionalized bigotry for or not. In any case the Ukraine should not be given special privileges because that would set a precedent that can undo all that they've worked for, including in countries that already joined the EU. .

This. And yes, that is the mission of the EU. On top of that, they're not just "standards;" they're rules, and countries are simply not allowed in until they abide by those rules.

So, yeah, I think the EU's decision not to let Ukrain in until they've signed an antidiscriminaton law is a very correct one. (I wouldn't call it a "policy towards Ukrainian gays," though. Their policy is to only let those in that meet their requirements, and Ukrain does not.)

[southbiochem]

I assume anti-discrimination law is binding to any type of discrimination and the benefits of going into the EU will outweight any bad feeling the populace has...anything has to be better that the semi-monopoly Russia has on Ukraine

then again people are ingrained into these medieval lines of thinking...and heavy Russian influence doesn't help either...same with Belarus...

at least if Ukraine enters the EU, it would be easier and logical for gay folks under threat to cross the border to Hungary or Poland...both friendlier as I understand...

[MisterTinkles]

As I stated on the Putin thread, these governments and people have been ruled under the same kind of laws for centuries. You cannot expect them to just change over night. Changes in rules, policies, and laws can occur quickly....but the mindset of the people takes generations to change.

Within two more generations of EU people, the mindset will have changed dramatically. It always takes at least a couple of generations for any new laws to get established with the people and make sense to them.

[Axanderb]

I think if a country wants to join a Union that already has a set list of rules and standards they should be forced to follow those rules and standards. They can't just get a pass simply because they have a close minded populace and don't want to break away from their previous "traditions". If Ukraine wants to achieve socioeconomic stability by joining the EU they must "conform" to the EU's standards of operation.

[mihai]

Eastern Europe countrys still have the communist way of thinking, they need more generation to pass in order to get rid of that mentality, so it's the same for Romania/Bulgaria/Hungary/Moldavia Republik/Ukrayne , they are homophobic. . presure it's worthless.

[MisterLove]

[...] Now fancy that the agreement is not signed because of the gays... they would not be able to go out without fear for their lives!
So what do you think about it? Should we keep on pressing Yanukovich or not?

I don't know the details but when it comes to human rights (and this includes LGBT rights), the EU should make no concessions.

It's not the EU that has to change, it's the Ukranian people (and not just Ukranians of course, homofobia exists in all countries).

Anyway, this proves what I said earlier: it's the intellectual elites that make evolution happen, not the majorities.

[stu]

So the proposal is to discriminate against people to stop them getting discriminating against?