partis Wrote:Fenris i agree with a lot of what you say, a good quote i heard one time that stuck to me, it was this "the first and last victim of nazism was germany" and theres admirable german people who stood up back then, as for whos to awnser to german refugges or red army raping your woman, its nothing to the suffering germany inflicted on the world, nothing.
I agree .... but it is very important to distinguish between Germany and Nazi-Germany AND to see the roots : Why this could happen.... what has made it possible that the Nazis could be so powerful
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partis Wrote:Jewish leaders didnt want it to happen, he got the poison anyway but was arrested aboard a british ship, theres mystery surrounding his capture, but obviously someone betrayed him and spent 1 year in prison.
I know... I saw a very good documentation about it ... in the first time after the war this group killed some of those responsible for the murders and crimes. but many of the chief executives could not be convicted because these criminals were able to work in the United States and Russia as normal because these states had imported these criminals. This made them inaccessible to the German courts after the war and their debt remained unpunished
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Lots of jews (including my parents -__-') still hate germans today...it's disgusting since they made a big effort for shoas comemoration.
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Ekwarph Wrote:Lots of jews (including my parents -__-') still hate germans today...it's disgusting since they made a big effort for shoas comemoration.
I can understand the victims and their families I can understand this hatred but it should refer to the perpetrators, not a country.
I admire many displaced from the old German territories ... no hate ... and they have really suffered under Russian occupation. Since farmers were nailed to their barn doors or they bound sawmill owners alive on tree trunks and sawn ... mass rape ...
But you can not compare injustice and suffering.
Fact is that emanated the 2 world war by Nazi.Germany. But the fact is too that no other country has so effective laws against fascism, racism and neo-Nazism as the Germany of today. By examplet the "Auschwitz lie" that is, the negative of the mass murder in the concentration camps, this lie results prison, same with showing Swastikas. Today it is so, that more Nazis living in the former Allied Nations and are tolerated in this countrys.
Hate is wrong ... in every case ... and with Hate you will never reach peace.... Germany and France have learned to be friends... to work together,,,, and Germany and France were foes through centuries...
I don´t know a country without stains on their list of human rights violations... and just the reason that a country won a war is not a sign that they have no human rights violations.
If England and France would not have always said to Hitler's plans yes ... Some would there have been different. These states have known that Nazi Germany has become so strong rearmed as never before ... and nothing done against it. They knew that Hitler wanted to occupy countries and have helped him to occupy .... it is supposed to do as no country as if it was not involved ...
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fenris Wrote:I can understand the victims and their families I can understand this hatred but it should refer to the perpetrators, not a country.
I agree with you. I understand this also.
When I came to Berlin with my parents, all that they found to say was : "Ooh, the guy over there, he has a SS face", "he looks like a nazi", "Oh I don't like him with his nazi face"...
Couldn't bear it from them...
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I can understand it ... it is fear and hate ...and it is so sad.
Same is with the german language .... I saw a lot of shoa testimonials on youtube and many of the people say that they hate the language. I think I would feel the same .... they say that it is the language of the perpetrators.
But as a german of today... and a german who knows what his parents and grandparents did in the time of the war I can say that it is the language of millions of innocent people, too.
My mother was born in 1927 ... and my father in 1915.... and I know both histories. My father was a soldier during WW2... and he was a soldier who was never promoted and was proud of it 
My mother told me that it was very hard to go to school and not to learn and accept the nazi stuff in school....
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Your right fenris, other countries, england, france etc appeased hitler, they shouldnt have but they were scared of another big war, people still remembered the first one. I understand it would be hard at that time to resist the nazi propoganda, before people should judge they should seriously think how they would have acted in those circumstances. Ekwarph said his parents, when in germany would say people had ss faces lol you can do the same thing anywhere. In britain there was the black shirts led by Oswald Mosley, britains answer to hitler.
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One can only understand they're wishes for revenge but repaying with the same coin would have only made them worse...
it took 6 million deaths, but hey, they have their own country now....albeit sorrounded by mulsim countries that declared death on them..yikes...
Anyways, the civilian population had already been punished enough, through lovely bombing campaigns and the massive expulsion from everywhere they used to be in Eastern Europe, which was the ultimate revenge act in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union and of course and most specially, Poland... until the Allies managed to control the situation and distribute the incoming ethnic Germans....to a now smaller and occupied Germany....
nope, they paid dearly as it was..
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7 million germans died in WWII... 50 million non germans died because ultimately of german aggression, yes they paid, i wouldnt say "dearly" though.
If nazi germany had thrown a toothbrush at poland and called the soviet union a big pansy then what happened to them in return would of been paying dearly.
Dont get me wrong, i said a "small part" of me wished the plot had sucseeded. That no one gets that is a shame.
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partis Wrote:Your right fenris, other countries, england, france etc appeased hitler, they shouldnt have but they were scared of another big war, people still remembered the first one. I understand it would be hard at that time to resist the nazi propoganda, before people should judge they should seriously think how they would have acted in those circumstances. Ekwarph said his parents, when in germany would say people had ss faces lol you can do the same thing anywhere. In britain there was the black shirts led by Oswald Mosley, britains answer to hitler.
For my opinion the WW2 was part 2 from WW1. The Problem was that the Allied demanded reparation payments which could not remain without consequences in Germany. The Nazi-Problem started not in 1933.... it started in 1920/21.... with 10 years more time. What many people don´t know is that in this time a lot of germans starved or froze to death because the big inflation. My Grandmother told me that they had to go to the Bakery with Laundry baskets full of money to buy a bread .... and so the anger grew against the winner of WW1... and the Nazi-Party grow. Germany has indeed only involved in WW1 because agreements existed with Austria... and so the People felt innocent in the war ... A direct result of reparations (steel, coal, money) was a mass unemployment .... everything was produced in Germany but could not be sold in Germany supported the unemployment. And the Nazi-Party And the Nazi Party made for working ... Another problem was that no one believed that would lead to another war at all ....As ordinary citizens realized what happened , the whole security apparatus was built and worked. Gestapo , SS and so on ....
A good example is Hitler's telephone operator Rochus Misch ... who asserts his entire life to never have been a Nazi .... He worked with Hitler in the Reich Chancellery ... and for him , Hitler was only his boss ... and a very nice boss ... he did not know until his arrest by the Russians after 1945 , which was played behind the scenes. The destruction system was perfectly camouflaged .... and it knew only someone something if he really wanted to know ... this knowledge was then also Perilous . A second example is Rommel ... Hitler had him voluntarily commit suicide, they disguised as an accident ... if Rommel would have acted differently , his family would have been in a concentration camp. At that time there was guilt by association ... that means ... if a man did something against Hitler ... his children , wife and parents landed automatically in the concentration camps ... and under such circumstances, courage is rare.
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