The exorcism of Martha, I've already mentioned it on this forum.
How do you explain this, then? The girl obviously wasn't looking for notoriety (her face was hidden and 'Martha' is not her real name) and doctors were unable to treat her.
I simply do not believe the girl was faking this and was able to trick Father Fortea - one of the wisest and most experienced exorcists in the world - her mother, the doctors and all the journalists that witnessed these events.
A video posted on Youtube is proof of nothing, dear. Anything can be created through video, and you only have the word of the people who created the video that it is reality. Again, I say that they may be real. That's only a maybe though. There's also footage of Bigfoot out there too. And aliens. Maybe they are real, but maybe the video footage is absolute crap. Who is to say besides the people who shot the videos or faked them?
Some people aren't looking for personal notoriety. Some people just want to see how far their tales will travel by making them seem as real as they can make them.
I appreciate your respect, Love, and extend the same to you. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, however, or I am not expressing myself clearly.
MisterLove Wrote:With all due respect, I think it's extremely arrogant and naiv to:
a) Believe that mankind is closer to unveil the secrets of the universe
I never said anything of the sort. To the contrary, I said the unexplained universe will never shrink out of existence.
MisterLove Wrote:b) Believe that science is the only legitimate form of knowledge
I never said anything of the sort. I said the scientific method is the best tool we have for understanding our world -- not the only one.
MisterLove Wrote:c) Describe all non scientific knowledge as 'superstition'
I never said anything of the sort. I said we are better defined by our curiosity (which is not scientific knowledge) and our ability to learn than by our superstitions and fears. You're reading a lot into that.
MisterLove Wrote:I love science, but science works on a purely material level. Scientists have improved our conditions of life but not our spirits.
I disagree. People used to feel much more bound by the authority of spiritual leaders. I think my spirit is much more free and advanced by the weakening of that authority. Science and education have played a large role in that change.
MisterLove Wrote:And because our society has become so materialistic and greedy, everyone tends to favour science over religion. So much so, that we seem to be evolving towards a new sort of rationalist or scientific intolerance: 'it's not scientific', they say.
To me, what I hear and feel every Sunday on church is just as real and palpable as the latest iPad or iPhone. With one difference, though: Sunday mass can make you a better person, the iPad can't.
I have no doubt that what you feel every Sunday is very real. Community, ritual, and introspection are important and powerful. Just remember that what you feel in church is no less real than what a Muslim feels at mosque, a Jew feels at temple, a Buddhist feels at a shrine, etc. It's how we interpret those very real feelings that I question.
I honestly doubt our society is more materialistic and greedy than it was a thousand years ago. We are dazzled by technology (iPad's, phones, etc) but that is a product of science, not science itself. One can likewise be dazzled by a cathedral, but that is not religion.
The exorcism of Martha, I've already mentioned it on this forum.
How do you explain this, then? The girl obviously wasn't looking for notoriety (her face was hidden and 'Martha' is not her real name) and doctors were unable to treat her.
I simply do not believe the girl was faking this and was able to trick Father Fortea - one of the wisest and most experienced exorcists in the world - her mother, the doctors and all the journalists that witnessed these events.
These people are called "attention seekers". For whatever reason they have concocted for themselves, they believe that they deserve to be noticed, and will do and say ANYTHING to get noticed. There are also those who pay or threaten people into doing things like this also. Whose to say the father wasnt the one who forced or tricked his daughter into doing this to make HIM famous?
The film is blurry, so if she wrote anything on the paper, I dont know what it was, it looked like blank paper to me.
A widely known "trick" that a lot of "possession" filmers use, is to stop filiming at a critical point, or where it looks like they need to readjust the set or the person faking the possession. And also filming in a way that makes what it being filmed, blurry, off center, or in a way that is meant to keep the viewer from paying attention to what they want you to see. And thats what they did here.
Any of us could have pulled off the same thing that this woman did.
Yes there are malevolent spirit entities that do all manner of things.
Bodily possession (Linda Blair Style) is very rare compared to all of the other forms of possessions and activities that take place.
I think its on the order of 1 out of 100 claims are actually paranormal. Furthermore, the churches are seeing a decided uptick in not only claims but serious cases of such activity.
Understand that the churches (Episcopalian/Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox) have been approaching the subject very carefully and seriously investigate and work to rule out hoax and mental/emotional illness.
If you Google the subject you will also find that the church has quietly been opening offices and hotlines and training a whole new batch of clerics to deal with the phenomenon. They are even pulling secular resources in to deal with the sudden increase of activity. Secular resources being psychologists and psychiatrists.
Now you can strike up my belief in such things due to the ritual abuse from my mother's cult that took place in my childhood. However this very subject if taken seriously and investigated reveals that there are an awful lot of people who have been part of such cults (as children) who report very similar activities not only of the cult but responses from the 'spirit realm' to what is decidedly formulaic activities that are designed to make contact with what most people call 'demons'.
I'm not of the typical type of case where people go to a therapist and debunkers then insist on 'implanted memories'. I recall clearly a lot of things and have always recalled those activities that took place in ritual. Its not 'recovered memories' in my case. While I freely admit I denied and even lied to hide my past, I have always been aware it was there.
In the past couple of years I have seriously started looking into other accounts of ritual abuse and a lot of what these people are saying are very similar to what I experienced.
There is a very real 'formula' to contact 'demons' - there is very real purpose behind these cults to actively bring these 'entities' into this world. How these entities manifest and what they do once they are here is too similar in account to account for me to dismiss, especially with my own personal experiences.
I have witnessed three bodily possessions, and they do defy what I know of modern psychology. But then seeing objects levitate and get thrown across a room with no mechanism (wires, strings, springs, etc) to achieve that leaves one with many questions. Seeing scratches and marks appear without a hand actually doing them, leaves one to wonder what the real physics of reality are.
One does not simply see a demon, it is an all sensory experience, one feels evil - unless you have never experienced it you can't actually explain what evil feels like, how it floods the senses and leaves a very real impression on one.
Yes there are a lot of hoaxers out there, yes there is a flood of pictures, movies and stuff which are fake. However occasionally a real photo a real film pops up which is remarkably similar to things I have personally experienced.
No not every case or claim is demonic, but some are.
Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:Understand that the churches (Episcopalian/Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox) have been approaching the subject very carefully and seriously investigate and work to rule out hoax and mental/emotional illness.
Absolutely.
The Spanish Episcopal Conference has recently announced that they were recruiting eight new exorcists. I simply do not believe that all Spanish bishops are gullible fools, they would not take such a daring decision, make it public and risk international ridicule unless they had good reasons to do it.
And yes, you are absolutely right: in the case of exorcisms, there's not even a conflict between science and religion. Priests are only allowed to perform an exorcism with the approval of the local bishop and after medical examination. The whole process is long, formal and cautious.
southbiochem Wrote:Persdonal experience, Bowyn?....now that I got to hear...
call me Scully, but you do know I'm a skeptical bastard, so..
do tell, do telll
Believe me, it's not just Bowyn.
I've witnessed a possible case of possession and I can assure you that was no mental illness but I don't want to go into details.
So yes, I strongly believe in the possibility of possession but I can't really say if this or that case in particular is genuine or not - not even the case of Martha.
MisterLove Wrote:I've witnessed a possible case of possession and I can assure you that was no mental illness but I don't want to go into details.
So yes, I strongly believe in the possibility of possession but I can't really say if this or that case in particular is genuine or not - not even the case of Martha.
I'm sorry, Love, but your assurance is meaningless. Many people -- good, intelligent people -- have misinterpreted what they have witnessed themselves. This has been demonstrated many times in many contexts (including highly educated scientists being fooled by young magicians).
You say you've witnessed a "possible case of possession". To me that means you witnessed something that you couldn't explain, except as possession.
What you said above is EXACTLY the issue as I see it. You can't point to one single case in particular that you can say is genuine, and yet you believe. Why?
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