Possession

[MisterLove]

Any of us could have pulled off the same thing that this woman did.

That is simply not true. Nobody could scream like that for hours.The YouTube video I posted is just the tip of the iceberg and only shows a fragment of what happened. There are several facts and details that are not shown here: levitation, foreign languages, eyes Rolling backwards during the prayers.

The exorcism of Martha went on for several years and has been profusely documented and analysed, incl. by doctors and journalists.

As always, the skeptics are people that had no first hand knowledge of the facts and had no contact whatsoever with the people involved.

[Geminize]

I simply do not believe that all Spanish bishops are gullible fools, they would not take such a daring decision, make it public and risk international ridicule unless they had good reasons to do it.

This is what's called a "false dichotomy". The way you phrased this, either

1. demonic possession and exorcism are real, OR
   
2. all Spanish bishops are gullible fools
   

I don't accept these as the only possibilities in this case. Spanish bishops are immersed in a cultural context. Just because they believe what they are taught and what is reinforced within that context does not mean they are correct, or gullible fools.

Do you believe all Jewish rabbis and muslim imams are gullible fools because they do not accept Jesus as the risen son of God? That's a rhetorical question, but you are welcome to answer it.

[VileKyle]

It looks like this is turning into one of the "faith vs logic" arguments. Faith in the existence of the supernatural (like spiritual possessions) cannot be argued against with logic, because the faithful never want to listen to logic. Logic cannot be argued against with faith, because the logical will never listen to faith.

As for the faithful, you cannot insist that something is fact just because you believe in it. Believe in it all you want and you cannot be faulted for that, but you can be faulted for forcing that belief to become fact merely because you want it to be so.

As for the logical, you cannot bring down faith just because it doesn't fit into a structure of facts. While I use the same logic to explain my world, I also understand that faith is a belief and cannot be weighed and measured. You can't touch it or see it in any way, so it just doesn't make sense. For the faithful, it doesn't have to.

[southbiochem]

It looks like this is turning into one of the "faith vs logic" arguments. Faith in the existence of the supernatural (like spiritual possessions) cannot be argued against with logic, because the faithful never want to listen to logic. Logic cannot be argued against with faith, because the logical will never listen to faith.

As for the faithful, you cannot insist that something is fact just because you believe in it. Believe in it all you want and you cannot be faulted for that, but you can be faulted for forcing that belief to become fact merely because you want it to be so.

As for the logical, you cannot bring down faith just because it doesn't fit into a structure of facts. While I use the same logic to explain my world, I also understand that faith is a belief and cannot be weighed and measured. You can't touch it or see it in any way, so it just doesn't make sense. For the faithful, it doesn't have to.

Eeverything you just said...word by word...

[Geminize]

Kyle has a good point. This conversation can go several ways. We can attempt a general debate about religion, or science and religion. That never seems to end well online.

We can share all sorts of personal beliefs (or lack of) in the paranormal, supernatural, or divine. That gets tiresome to me.

Or we can stay with the original topic -- possession -- and put forward our best arguments for and against. That appeals most to me.

Of course, we can also let the thread die before anyone gets their feelings hurt. (Maybe too late!) If you want to keep the thread going, please be civil and understand that intelligent people can disagree. If you are easily offended, outraged, or baffled by opinions that differ from yours, you might want to sit this one out.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

South,

I prefer to not talk about my personal experiences in this area.

You know I wake up screaming some nights, it is all tied into my childhood which is tied into a world I really work hard at to deny and ignore and not think about. This all ties back to the cult my mother was part of, the cult that I was part of and forced to participate in.

A majority of the crap I witnessed is part of this cult activity. Its called 'ritual abuse' simply because a lot of ugly, abusive stuff takes place, physical, mental, emotional, sexual, verbal.

Then there are 'abuses' I don't know what they fall under. I was forced, on threat of being killed, to plunge an athame into living animals for sacrifice. This sort of thing comes to mind when I talk about this subject or related subjects. So I am sort of reluctant to discuss my experiences.

To the unknowing they think 'oh a dagger sacrifice' to those who understand or who have studied the significance of the athame over a mere dagger this chills them to the bone.

There are two parts of me always at war. The part of me that knows that there is evil in this world and not all of it is merely spirit. Then the part of me that works real hard to not think about the subject, to find nice ways to explain it all away and deny the subject.

When I learned I had epilepsy I was very happy about that. Why? Because it gives me a default 'fall back on' explanation for things I see. Unfortunately too many times there were others who saw exactly what I saw - I can hardly wait until science proves that seizures are contagious thus I can more easily deny those experiences that others witnessed with me.

This isn't a subject I take lightly, its not a campfire ghost story, this is a very real experience that is painful to me. When I touch on this sort of subject it brings back memories I don't really like.

[Sylph]

Okay, but my team is beating yours 6-not 6 :p

Eitherway, we will all believe what we do. I think the point of this discussion, is that we all have Egos, opinions and beliefs, and that there is too much talking and not enough loving agwaan here »,»

Everybody put your dicks away now, the who is better contest is over, your all well proportioned...especially mars.

Lets go get our hair done you guys:3

[southbiochem]

South,

I prefer to not talk about my personal experiences in this area.

You know I wake up screaming some nights, it is all tied into my childhood which is tied into a world I really work hard at to deny and ignore and not think about. This all ties back to the cult my mother was part of, the cult that I was part of and forced to participate in.

A majority of the crap I witnessed is part of this cult activity. Its called 'ritual abuse' simply because a lot of ugly, abusive stuff takes place, physical, mental, emotional, sexual, verbal.

Then there are 'abuses' I don't know what they fall under. I was forced, on threat of being killed, to plunge an athame into living animals for sacrifice. This sort of thing comes to mind when I talk about this subject or related subjects. So I am sort of reluctant to discuss my experiences.

To the unknowing they think 'oh a dagger sacrifice' to those who understand or who have studied the significance of the athame over a mere dagger this chills them to the bone.

There are two parts of me always at war. The part of me that knows that there is evil in this world and not all of it is merely spirit. Then the part of me that works real hard to not think about the subject, to find nice ways to explain it all away and deny the subject.

When I learned I had epilepsy I was very happy about that. Why? Because it gives me a default 'fall back on' explanation for things I see. Unfortunately too many times there were others who saw exactly what I saw - I can hardly wait until science proves that seizures are contagious thus I can more easily deny those experiences that others witnessed with me.

This isn't a subject I take lightly, its not a campfire ghost story, this is a very real experience that is painful to me. When I touch on this sort of subject it brings back memories I don't really like.

A child's mind is very impresionable...

cults work in providing for mass delusions, Bowyn...not too surprising to find many of you "saw" the same things..how else would you explain mass suicides..

I won't go any further than that, as it's a very traumatic experience for you....thanks for sharing this details

[Woollyhats]

No, possession is ridiculous.

When I was little, I had a friend that said the devil whispered to her and would tell me what he was saying.

She wasn't possessed, she just played a little game, and ended up believing it after awhile (yes, for a brief period she claimed she heard evil voices, and when she got older she grew out of it).

Similarly, possessions can usually be attributed to mental health issues, like schizophrenia. Obviously, people who are seemingly possessed either act in very disturbing ways, or honestly believe they are possessed, but treating it as a mental health problem is going to yield better results than primitive exorcisms.

Of course, if the possession is caused by the belief that one is possessed, and the 'possessed' believes in the power of the exorcism, the 'possessed' party will be cured of his own self inflicted possession. In this respect, perhaps the possessed party is in fact possessed by his or her own negative emotions, ironically making the unneeded exorcism rather effective --- but that doesn't mean that the excorsism has released an evil spirit or that anything divine occurred during it, and extensive therapy would probably have given the same result.

This is how possession and the related beliefs in possession work.

[Tim18]

Yes, I believe in possession.