Ok, first off, let me apologize for bothering everyone with this stupid question. I think it's stupid anyway. I'm not a gay man myself, but I'm in the middle of a LONG standing argument with some apparent bigot who absolutely INSISTS that homosexuality is a choice. He says it's the choice to live as a homosexual that makes one gay. I said that's ridiculous, sexual orientation is determined before birth, the choice comes when one makes what is often a difficult decision to come out and live freely. This is an argument happening on facebook. I'm a very progressive liberal, I support the LGBT community, and I'm vehemently against any discrimination anyone has to go through, for any reason. His views, like far too many right wing nutbars, are close to the opposite. Anyway, I don't know how to make my argument any clearer, so I'm looking for some advice from anyone who actually has firsthand knowledge, as I cannot intelligently speak out for a group of folks if I don't experience that life for myself. Can someone tell me what to say to maybe get the point across? I'm sorry to bug you guys about something like this.
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Ask him if he recalls the day he made the choice to be straight...
Of course he most likely didn't - or sadly actually there may have been such a day, but he won't admit to it since most homophobes are actually self hating, because they have either tendencies or are full blown gay and live in a society that still frowns on that, so they deflect and over react and protest way too much.
The only choice I made way long ago was the choice to be open and honest about what I wanted and who I wanted to be with. I was already gay, most likely gay as far back as the bronze age (perhaps the stone age, but I'm not as old as Mr. Tinkles).
As far as I know, or can tell, I wasn't 'made' gay - well its possible, but doesn't feel right to me. And I never made no choice to swear off women or made a choice to go with the guys.
The thing with bigots, they don't wanna hear any other opinion than their own. you cannot win this argument. Best bet, throw up your arms and walk away and let him pound his head against whatever wall of denial he wants to.
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:The thing with bigots, they don't wanna hear any other opinion than their own. you cannot win this argument. Best bet, throw up your arms and walk away and let him pound his head against whatever wall of denial he wants to.
Unfortunately, that probably is the only solution to this question. Some people just won't listen to reason until it's charging at them with a live grenade. Let that be their problem. In this case, you are only making it your problem when you start to talk to this douche-bag.
As for personal experiences, I certainly didn't make a choice. It was a realization and self-discovery about who I already was. It was also very difficult for me to come to terms with my sexuality. I fought against the idea most of my life because I was raised to be a homophobic idiot by my community. As it turns out, no amount of social conditioning could change who I really was in the end. It definitely didn't allow me to choose, either. I only fell into a deep depression partially because of it until I was 26. God bless homophobes for all the improvements they've made on my life!
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I think the only choice is choosing to hold yourself back. I'm not 100% sure of my sexuality right now, but recently I've definitely started taking an interest in men. I wonder, why now all of a sudden? Well I think back and realize that I have seen men in a sexual way before, but I always shrug it off or tell myself that it doesn't mean anything because "I clearly like girls and feminine gay people creep me out, so I couldn't possibly be gay". Now that I'm much more educated on the subject, realize that bisexuality is a thing, and support for LGBT has risen in recent years, I stopped holding myself back as much. Now when I see a guy and my gut reaction is "That guy's pretty hot" I don't follow up with a "Shut up me, I don't know what I'm talking about. I mean he's not ugly, but whatever..." Instead, I'm just like "...Yeah, he is hot".
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You could say on some occasions its a choice. If somebody whos gay chooses to live a straight life, he has made a choice "no" so you could say its a choice to say "yes" and be yourself.
Also have there ever been guys who had sex with guys, yes all the time, it goes on in prison. They arent gay by choice.
For me there was not much choice, the choice made me, even before i thought of sex.
But thats me, not every gay person.
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Personally, I always think this:
You didn't chose to like this or that girl...it happened and that's that.....it's the same with me: I didn't wake up one day and decided I was going to like other men, I just did
you can tell him that quite in fact, if it was a choice I would have chosen to be "normal", to be straight, rather than go through all this problems just cause I like men. And I'm probably not the only one.
I don't recall ever liking women...whether there was some event that made me swift towards gay before I was old enough to like people, or simply because I was born like this, I don't know
all I know is that being atracted to men is simply, out of my conscious control....the only choice for me is to remain hidden and deny it, or to go in the open and accept it..
due congrats on your open minded views, btw...
I will say that if he's one of those right winger religious near-Opus Dei freaks..you're probably not be able to change his narrow minded views..but thanks anyway for trying, in behalf of all of us  mile:
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partis Wrote:You could say on some occasions its a choice. If somebody whos gay chooses to live a straight life, he has made a choice "no" so you could say its a choice to say "yes" and be yourself.
Also have there ever been guys who had sex with guys, yes all the time, it goes on in prison. They arent gay by choice.
For me there was not much choice, the choice made me, even before i thought of sex.
But thats me, not every gay person.
[COLOR="green"]Well actually, in most prison scenarios, they arent gay at all, but are just disgusting men, pushed hormonally speaking against the wall, because in a situation like that, choice is a priviledge. The only choice they make in that regard is fuck a guy and get off or spend the next 3 years celibate. Knowing men, you can already see there is no choice for them. :|
It's not necessarily the same as a man who looks at a woman, then looks at a man and thinks, "well okay, I think I'll go with the man", when all his life he was straight. That would be a choice and one could argue that he is Bisexual, or was never straight in the first place or just unsure.
A person who knows they are gay from day 1 or there abouts, tend to realize its not so much a choice or lack there of, so much as it is a fact and a state of who they are.
No one chooses their Ethnicity, it's just a fact people are born a certain race.
It's really very simple and I have to wonder why such debates occur. It's really insignificant in the greater scheme of things lol.[/COLOR]
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fire398017 Wrote:Ok, first off, let me apologize for bothering everyone with this stupid question. I think it's stupid anyway. I'm not a gay man myself, but I'm in the middle of a LONG standing argument with some apparent bigot who absolutely INSISTS that homosexuality is a choice. He says it's the choice to live as a homosexual that makes one gay. I said that's ridiculous, sexual orientation is determined before birth, the choice comes when one makes what is often a difficult decision to come out and live freely. This is an argument happening on facebook. I'm a very progressive liberal, I support the LGBT community, and I'm vehemently against any discrimination anyone has to go through, for any reason. His views, like far too many right wing nutbars, are close to the opposite. Anyway, I don't know how to make my argument any clearer, so I'm looking for some advice from anyone who actually has firsthand knowledge, as I cannot intelligently speak out for a group of folks if I don't experience that life for myself. Can someone tell me what to say to maybe get the point across? I'm sorry to bug you guys about something like this.
Quoting the famous Ron White..."You can't fix stupid."
Just give it up mate. I know you want to get a point across to this Teabagger, but like he doesn't want you to get your point across. He sleeps better at night knowing there's conflict. They enjoy conflict, and it's like an illness that they enjoy.
Just be a smartass and be like "Ok you win, homosexuality is a choice. I'll tell my friends." It'll piss him off worse because he will know you're not being serious, and it ends the argument, even though he'll want to keep it going.
My grandfather is a bigot, sexist, baptist, teabagging Fox News worshiper. Take my word for it.
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fire398017 Wrote:Ok, first off, let me apologize for bothering everyone with this stupid question. I think it's stupid anyway. I'm not a gay man myself, but I'm in the middle of a LONG standing argument with some apparent bigot who absolutely INSISTS that homosexuality is a choice. He says it's the choice to live as a homosexual that makes one gay. I said that's ridiculous, sexual orientation is determined before birth, the choice comes when one makes what is often a difficult decision to come out and live freely. This is an argument happening on facebook. I'm a very progressive liberal, I support the LGBT community, and I'm vehemently against any discrimination anyone has to go through, for any reason. His views, like far too many right wing nutbars, are close to the opposite. Anyway, I don't know how to make my argument any clearer, so I'm looking for some advice from anyone who actually has firsthand knowledge, as I cannot intelligently speak out for a group of folks if I don't experience that life for myself. Can someone tell me what to say to maybe get the point across? I'm sorry to bug you guys about something like this.
This is the case of an immovable object coming against an unstoppable force. I have argued this so many times with people I have found the best strategy is to rise above.
Truth be told, I don't know that I was born this way out if it was learned. I don't find that to be important. The only thing I say is that it is only logical to assume that it is natural because the cause it's really unknown.
Simply getting out of the way of a bus denies it the satisfaction of hitting you and saves you the strain of trying to stop it with might.
Many of these people that believe this, do so because it is important to them. You can post a million facts and studies they will discredit the studies as being performed by people bought by the "gay agenda." Your face book adversary will not accept any facts. Simply ask him to prove it was a choice without such proof it's only an assumption.
Short of proof he has nothing. You claim victory.
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I would just ask him, if he were straight would he make a choice never to be with a woman in his life simply because part of a community thought it was wrong?
Since he is so devoted to the topic you could also ask him why what two guys do in their own bedroom interests him so much.
Could probably make a point of why are you so against gay relationships.
It will probably be a religious based defense and I admit here is a bit of a weakness on my part as I don't read the bible but the seemingly always quoted "lying with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination" and Sodom and Gomorrah deal were both old testament
along with women being sub human to men, along with slavery and acts that we as a community typically deem very untasteful. If im not mistaken the old testament is still there for knowledge's sake but when Jesus died on the cross the old testament got shelved along with making sacrifices O_O eating certain meats etc etc..
Again when it comes to religion I wouldn't rely on what I said as im not super knowledgeable there, we do have several very religious individuals here perhaps they can take what I said and refine it.
In truth, his defenses on this subject are both fragile and limited there IS NO LOGICAL debate that can be won against homosexuality if you bring the right ammo  . And if im right in the above then there is no religious debate (so long as something like that isnt also mentioned in the new testament) that can win either if he tries to uphold the old testament in its entirety then he would look incredibly foolish, if he trys to pick and choose what to uphold then the whole religious debate will unravel.
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Question from a straight guy
