Dating - Other Opinions Needed

[loserguy]

I have had 2 proper relationships one of which was fantastic.
I now find myself on the online dating scene although I go to gay bars from time to time.
The trouble with online dating is that it seems the vast majority of guys are looking for no strings sex. They will tell you what you want to hear, even talk about the future and then either they will ignore or you will meet for a hookup and afterwards they will ignore.
Why?
My opinion is that they do not want to have to wrestle with their emotions. They look forward and see themselves losing control or maybe they realize I am just not interested in hooking up?
Fortunately I don't do hookups any more as I found in the past that they were too difficult to deal with emotionally.
From my point of view, I tend to come across as too needy sometimes online - I know that. I reply to too many texts, send too many emails and by that I mean if I haven't heard from someone after a few days I might email or text.
Now I know sometimes the reasons for someone not replying might be:
1. They are busy with work
2. They are busy with other matters
3. They may have lost their phone
4. They might be dead
5. They might have lost interest
6. They might be playing with you

Now I know that most guys need a challenge in order for them to feel attracted to you.
That means you value yourself, flirt a little and keep them guessing. Make them work.
I am useless at this.

I am looking for advice on that as I usually end up kissing on the first date and usually this is also the last date.

Any advice would be great, even hard hitting advice.

Thanks :-)

[Woollyhats]

Be friendly but a little detached... Be clear about what you want, and leave an air of, 'this is what I want because I deserve it, and you're nice and everything, but if it doesn't work out with you I won't be phased.' It makes it seem like more of a privilege to know and befriend you --- and when you become a prize rather than someone that just wants to throw yourself at someone, some people like that a lot more.

If you want a relationship don't hook up. Hook up =/= love.

That's not to say don't have sex, but put a waiting period on the sex. Go on dates, get to know him, talk to him frequently. If everything goes well after or just before --- say a month --- then you more likely know if this is a guy you want and that wants you.

It will also defeat a lot of the players. Because if someone just wants a one night stand, they're unlikely to navigate the labyrinth of dates and talking and getting to know and questions for that --- and if they are, it's less likely they're going to want to do that for an extended period of time. This is also going to ward off some of the more sexual men that WOULD actually date you, but as with most things in life you have to weigh what you're getting versus what you're giving up --- in this case, you're less likely to be played, and more likely to find people that are serious.

Also try not to talk about just relaitonshipy things. That's where things like the dreaded 20 questions come into the equation...

[Bowyn Aerrow]

One has to open a lot of oysters before one finds a pearl.

I honestly do not know how to weed out the bad guys from the good ones.

I do tend to put it out there point blank there will be no sex for the first 30 days. That works well to weed out the near-by (geographically) players. Unfortunately there are far players as well. I had one guy in New York who was playing me, he was trying to set up a weeks 'vacation' in California where he was trying to get me to be his plaything for the week.

Then there is Mr. Porn Star - a guy I 'meet' on OKCupid ( a site supposedly dedicated to real relationships). After he got my email address and we had a couple nice emails he started sending me his body of 'work' - lots of sex where he is one of the chief stars. Yesterday when I checked my spam folder I had 6 more emails from him with attachments. I told him a few months ago 'no thanks' Not interested....

From where I sit most gays are faggots. They are into sex and just sex and all they want is to have sex with everyone. And many find the challenge to be part of what they get off on. So many will play this game and pretend to be interested in more than 'just sex' for a 30 day period to see if they can 'score'.

Its always been this way I guess. Just back before the Internets one would go to a bar/club and be subjected to this mindset immediately, with the goal being a one night stand tonight, instead of their taking time and working a victim.


I'm not saying there are not a lot of nice guys out there who want relationships and monogamy and all of that. Unfortunately most are already in their life long relationship and guys like you and I are stuck out in the cold.

Your options are to keep swinging the bat.

Or give up.

Mind I gave up not too long ago. I was talking with this very nice guy who seemed sincerely honest about monogamy, long term relationships - a perfect gentleman. Until he informed me that the type of work he does is in organized crime.

(sigh).... Such is life.

[MisterTinkles]

Yeah, gotta kiss a LOT of toads before you find one that turns into a Prince.....IF EVER.

Does not matter what you do, what you say, where you go, or how you meet them.......its all a mindfuckfest. 99% of these guys are just playing mind games. Which, to me, makes them completely untrustworthy, unreliable, players, and toads.

I decided in 1997 I was NOT going to be playing this mindfuck game. And I stopped. Have not had a "date" since, and I really dont give a shit either. Im not putting up with all that moronic, childish, infantile, loser mind games in order to POSSIBLY find someone. It is not worth it. Not in the least.

My sanity, morals, and self respect are much more valuable than having to degrade myself to play some brain dead, idiotic, pre-pubescent, demeaning, mindfuck games in order to find someone.

If they have to play these mindfuck games to find someone, well then, they aren't worth the carbon it took to make them.

[loserguy]

Thanks for your opinions and advice.

No I won't give up - it's just not me especially as I have experienced the real thing.

As regards online? One email/one text only in sequence?

Don't mention the r word - emphasize the friends first - is that right Woollyhats?
So maybe be a little aloof?

And at what point do you recommend kissing?
I usually dive on in if the signals are right but that seems to put them off?

So how do I express enough interest on the first date without eating his face?
Should be obvious I know but I keep making the same mistakes or maybe I am being too hard on myself?

I agree, there does seem to be a lot of mind games.
I wouldn't be too judgemental either ie if we can laugh together and converse together it's a good start and picking holes in anyone is always too easy.
Perfection doesn't exist and would be too boring.
I like to give everyone a chance and then look for some common ground.

Thanks again.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Kissing as in eating face - best saved for at least the third date, unless you two have such chemistry that its heading for the bedroom immediately.

Light kiss to the cheek is a gentlemanly way to end a first date.

Mind not all guys are into PDA, and you will be saying good night on a door step. Best to ask during the 20 questions game earlier that evening what their stance is on Public Displays of Affection (PDA).

Casual touching sends a clear message of interest. Putting your hand on their shoulder while talking, or when sitting side by side allowing your leg to rest against theirs, if they pull away they are sending a message of 'no'. however if its a public space it may be a no PDA reaction.

Look, you are going to be trying to temper hormones with rational "I'm looking for more than just sex here." So you want to keep the signals to 'gentlemanly' things.

Also there is a whole set of body language that expresses interest, acceptance, honesty and other things. how you lean when talking to a person can send a message of interest or boredom. There is a lot of sites on the subject: https://www.google.com/#q=reading+body+language

I personally had to learn body language as a way to communicate, I'm typically the guy who crosses his arms over his chest - not because I'm not listening, or stubborn, or something like that, its just comfortable for me. However such a stance sends a clear message of closed defensiveness.

Perhaps you are sending messages you do not want to send as well? Perhaps you have certain habits you consider to be 'nothing' but are actually telling people you are unapproachable.

For instance looking at a person. There is a clear cut line between staring deep into the soul and reading their every sin and just looking at them attentively. I tend to stare at a person and make them uncomfortable because I do give my whole undivided attention and it looks/feels like I am peering deep into their soul and finding something to judge.

From that I have learned to mentally count in my head to ten then look away for a count of 5-10 - I send the message of interest in whatever it is they are saying without sending the message that I have just read their thoughts.

Yes its complicated.

[Woollyhats]

Don't mention the r word - emphasize the friends first - is that right Woollyhats?
So maybe be a little aloof?

And at what point do you recommend kissing?
I usually dive on in if the signals are right but that seems to put them off?

So how do I express enough interest on the first date without eating his face?
Should be obvious I know but I keep making the same mistakes or maybe I am being too hard on myself?
Thanks again.

You can mention the r word --- you want to be clear that you're aiming for a relationship... but you won't necessarily want to be gushing about how much you're in love and how much you NEED him and all that on the first few dates AND YOU WANT TO TRY TO FIND COMMON INTERESTS. It can scare people, make you seem desperate if you seem to just be desparetely searching for smeone --- and if you're seeming desperate that's not going to make someone feel special.

I recommended waiting for sex --- I recommended a long period (approaching a month), both because that's often the recommended time to wait, and because it forces you to get to know guys . It's up to you though, if you love someone that loves you back immensely and find yourself going to the bedroom before that, it's not like you're doing anything wrong.

On the first date, it's generally a getting to know. Find some interests, and try to do an activity that is a middle ground for each of you. For example, if he liked art, perhaps suggest going to the local art gallery.

The first date is usually about getting to know someone and participating in friend building activities, though some people do make out and/or have sex on the first date. I would tend not to suggest this for you because you've had issues with hookups/guys just leaving, etc. Honestly though, I don't think there's anything wrong with physical contact/hugging/kissing right away, but everyone is different and I think on the first date being respectful of each other's wishes is most important.

So yes, being open is important. If you want a relationship, make that clear. But don't seem desparate because that scares people, and take things slow because it seems like you are a person that naturally wants to take relationships slowly and comfortably.

And remember, the possibility for getting hurt always exists, and likely, it will happen again. But as long as you keep trying, the possibility of finding someone you really will come to love also exists.

[southbiochem]

Onine dating is much like gambling...a lot of losing going on, very little gain...but everyu now and then you can hit jackpot

I would suggest you refrain from kissing on the first date..realy..don't do it.

if the partner is interested in more than a hook up he will keep contact with you in spite of this..usually one-night standers don't have that kind of patience..

as for the rest it will be a lot of trial and error

be patient and you'll find someone suitable for a relationship amidst all that crap

[James]

Personally I go to bars to drink and make a little money shooting pool, most of the web sites have to many "lets find someone to f..k types. We had some people find their other at the old glbtq center, about 17, unfortunately it got new management and was forced to shut down. But I would look or at least make my presence know at glbt places and of course the pride festivals, but watch the festivals good people and trolling people so you have to pay attention

[GRRRR]

I know what I will be facing very soon.. I know exactly what guys are looking from me... SEX and SEX...
.. but I can't offer that... cause it would be too easy.

I think guys are the same, all over the world... mostly looking for sex or better "models" after they had get you in bed.