Most democratic countries also have something akin to a "Bill of Rights", and among the freedoms granted are usually religious freedom and protected free speech. I would theorize that enshrining principles like that into law has a profound enough influence on a society that it steers the country's history in a generally positive direction in regards to how people treat each other and minorities. The principles are not always followed to the letter, and often it can take decades or even centuries to make real progress, but nevertheless just by creating a government that honors those principles progress is almost a given.
Almost universally the Western, democratic, free countries are more accommodating to minority groups now than they were early in their history. It's absolutely true that setbacks occur and need to be addressed, but we've managed to officially abolish slavery, give women the vote, end segregation and apartheid, and discourage practices that disenfranchised the minority vote among other things. I call that progress.
People generally don't know Middle Eastern history very well. At one time both Iran and Iraq had quite progressive governments and a much more free way of life. The current climate in the Middle East has a lot, both in and out of those countries, has a lot to do with the collapse of those governments. The collapse of those governments in turn has quite a bit to do with neo-colonial practices by more powerful nations, just as those practices held back progress in Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Indian subcontinent. It's hard to see a way out of the current quagmire, but I don't see how heaping on more open hostility towards a specific group (muslims) could possibly have a positive effect on goodwill. In reality, it's pretty likely to encourage a lot of Muslim youth in Europe to identify more strongly with the militant and anti-democratic factions. That in itself is outright courting instability.
There are a lot of people who have studied the Koran and come to the conclusion that there are a lot of dangerous ideas inside. I don't disagree with that notion, but I don't personally find it any more dangerous than Leviticus. As I said before, the reason for the human rights violations we're talking about are governments making civil laws for religious reasons. You could just as well insert cultural reasons as religious reasons in many cases, as people will often wave the flag of "community standards" when they want to stop other people from living in a way that they find offensive or are creeped out by different cultures. "Save the Children" campaigns and "Protect the Family" movements have similar agendas, and usually discount a child's ability to think for themselves and form their own sense of morality. Assholes who think that way actually don't want kids to think critically about anything, they want them to be under control and believe what they're told. They assume that if a kid hears anything counter to what the parents are teaching that it pollutes the parents' teaching and thus violates the rights of the family. These are actually all thinly veiled excuses for controlling people and making sure everybody falls into line.
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BA, as usual you score a lot of points but manage to make me want to slit my wrists, at least for a second.
I see the hypocrisy in our society as well. Can't get rid of it really, because no matter how well you educate people not only will some of them remain willfully stupid, but they will have children who stubbornly refuse to behave in a predictable way, too.
Yes there is rampant consumerism. Yes we act as if Mexico is pretty much an unimportant place. We also know that nobody lives in Canada, eh? So we don't worry about them either, and besides they're white so they're allowed to take a few of our jobs.
This is nothing new of course. There were always "ignorant savages" and "barbarian hordes". We're also most likely in a position similar to when the "barbarians were at the gate", insofar as we've gone past the height of our civilisation and are now in steady decline. I'm actually OK with all of those things.
On the consumerism and advertising to kids issues, I have a backbone and thus have no problem with telling my kid no, while still managing to make it clear to her how much I care for her and how much sacrifice I make on her behalf. In return she is an awesome person and not a spoiled brat. It's called good parenting and any parent has the option of actually paying attention to their kids and making them feel loved and respected. It's sad that many don't, but the bad is not universal.
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I want to become a Dutch citizen now!!!!
The whole point (in the USA) for immigrants, is that they are supposedly coming over here to get away from the violence and self destructive ways of their culture. But INSTEAD of adopting the American way and becoming actual Americans.....they bring their shit with them. They cannot be bothered to learn English, they cannot be bothered to integrate into the American way of life. So, they show Americans nothing but hate and torment, by degrading our society (we do that pretty well without their help), threatening us, and showing us all sorts of disrespect.
And our government allows it.
There WILL be a civil war here soon. People are getting tired of self righteous foreigners coming over here and bringing their hate, war, pestilence, and bigotry with them. And on top of all of that, they are trying to take over the country by breeding like cockroaches, to create their own personal armies.
Hate me, slap me, or side with me................it is the truth.
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I find these issues very difficult to think through. I appreciate that some people see them in more straightforward terms. I put myself in the place of the immigrant, because one day I shall probably live in France with PA. Even though I have made the journey there most months for more than ten years I still find the language overwhelming. When I live there I shall be forced to speak more French, by circumstances, by the need to communicate, but mainly because I would want to and because it would seem to be the courteous thing to do. Now, when I meet English speakers in France, I usually lapse into English because it is easier for me.
A few months ago I read an article that pointed out that the biggest rise in homophobic crime in Europe was in Amsterdam and the perpetrators were more than likely to be from an Islamic culture. Whilst looking for that article I came across this research which says something quite different (I bet I'm still not allowed to post links so you'll have to piece this link together - w w w.expatica.com/nl/news/news_focus/Homophobic-aggression-on-the-rise_13281.html ) So like I say, I find the issue complicated.
I don't understand why anyone would choose to go and live in a country and not be prepared to give regard to its customs and laws. If I didn't like the laws I wouldn't go there. As it happens there are about ninety countries which are unlikely to be getting my pink pence any time soon.
The only way I can see anything that looks like a way through my confusion would be for the state really to become secular. In the UK that would mean disestablishing the Church of England and, for good measure, nationalising education. As much as possible give children the intellectual tools to make informed decisions over their allegiances and not allow them to be brought up in ghettoes based on an organised superstition chosen by their parents.
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Yeah, and the Irish, the Italians, and the Chinese all did the same thing at previous times in our history. Then a funny thing happened. Their kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids basically assimilated to the point they're just normal Americans now.
I'm all for a unified national language. I'm all for a rigorous process before being granted citizenship. I'm all for denouncing criminal activity. But I'm 100% against broad negative characterizations of groups of people and also get rather pissed when people start saying things like "it's the truth" as if they've just stated a verifiable, incontestable fact, when in fact they've spouted a cheap and popular soundbite without any real meat to the ideas involved.
I mostly like you Mr T, but what you typed here was crap. It's my opinion.
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It comes off as common sense but it's propaganda pure and simple to make it seem certain people have special rights to justify hating them. I've seen these too often, and they get used against the gay community, too. Don't fall for them.
That said, I do agree that immigrants should have no special rights or free passes from the law, and that learning the native language (even if it's unofficial) makes sense for any citizenship test (though that's easy, put the written/computer part of the test in the language of the country they wish to emigrate to and allow no translators).
One thing has bothered me about the Dutch in that they don't seem to care that immigrants are abducting Dutch children into sexual slavery and the system normally just gives them a slap on the wrist at most. Thing is, I don't know if this tolerance is for immigrants only or if the Dutch pimps are also given a pass, but obviously no one should be allowed to do that be it immigrant or native, and anyone who rapes and predates on children need to be separated from society. Whatever the reason for the tolerance for these predators, it needs to be stopped immediately.
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It's a simple form of manipulative control and I'll explain why, but first;
[COLOR="Blue"]English is not an "Inborn" language or a language that anyone should have to learn, it's a language of convenience, as a great majourity of persons speak it.
I'm sorry to be honest, but American's, especially when it comes to culture, tend to prefer for instance, a Spanish or Arabic person coming into their country, to speak English, even when that person would prefer not to. The Dutch seem to be wanting this as well, which is probably why Americans will most likely be the first or majourity to side and agree with this movement.
It's almost similar as asking a Woman to shave her head bald, dress in men's apparel and speak with the bass of her voice, even though she'd rather not.[/COLOR]
Now here's why;
It's not because it's easier for someone to adapt to a new culture or language, especially for that person obviously, but because it's narcissism and a form of control and manipulation. You can't command or protect yourself, when you don't know what the person is saying.
If that person perhaps does not like you or you think they do not like you and they spoke it in another language or way you did not understand or are used to, you'd automatically feel threatened or uncomfortable, because you simply do not know.
So in an effort to try and maintain a semblance of nomenclature, places with a majourity tend to either ostracize or conform the minority.
I'm not overly surprised.
However, what is surprising, is that in this time of supposed unification of the races or universal understanding, that these things are still a majour issue. But I suppose they always will be, so long as there are insecure or overly confident people and places with power :\
All the majour latin derivative speaking countries/cultures seem to be the same.
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Learning a new language is not easy. If you are born into a bi...lingual family and are subjected to two different languages during your formative years its far, far easier to learn new languages than those who are born to a single language home.
English is not the easiest language on earth. If anything its moronic in structure, conflicted in grammar and usage. It is almost harder than Mandarin.
To expect any adult person to actually learn the language is basically to expect cows to sprout wings and fly.
The real problem with the Middle East and Modern Islam is not Islam, its the way that Islam has been modified to deal with the Western Aggression in the past century. The politicians who got power in the Middle Eastern Nations did so because the people feared the bigger evils of a mad Western Society that has no problem bombing whole cultures back to the stone age.
Look at Iraq. Really look at it. Prior to the Gulf War I, Iraq was a lovely place to live. Say what you want about Saddam's policies and practices, the reality was that the majority of Iraqis were enjoying a very good life. Then comes America to bomb its infrastructure to the stone age, then comes a decade or so of occasional reducing any infrastructure that was rebuild back to rubble, and denying aide, and placing unrealistically tight sanctions on Iraq in order to 'punish' Saddam who was at one time one of America's Middle Eastern Play Pals.
Look at Bin Laden - another American Puppet who was screwed over and decided that if America can't play fair then why should he.....
Iran hates America, with good cause. The Iranian Hostages didn't happen for no reason, there was that whole Shaw of Iran human interest story where America's puppet was outed and replaced by Iranian chosen politicians. Did they choose right? IDK - They chose what they felt was right and certainly wasn't a pawn in Western Nations games in the Middle East.
Modern extremist Islam is a product of Westerner interference. Like it or not our politicians made the middle east what it is, and policies like the Netherlands is making, the policies that the UK desires to make, the ongoing hatred of the US government of Islam (Oh we are not in a religious war - Bull shit), continues to make Islam a Religion of War instead of peace.
Freedom is why people come to democracies, freedom to be who and what they are, to worship God as they understand God, the freedom to go to bed with the idea that they won't be rounded up at 3 am in the morning and killed or something. They are not coming to democracies to become white people and christian, they are coming here to escape the horrors that that the Western Nations have made of the Middle East.
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I stand by that immigrants should learn at least the basics of the country they're going to and here's why: they can't incorporate into a country if they can't communicate, and it puts burden on a great many institutions to have a variety of translators ready to accommodate them. It doesn't have to be flawless, just enough to get by. (And btw, I actually find many of the best speakers of English learned it as an adult, typically at colleges in other countries which would probably flunk the average American speaker of English.)
Now if they want to be "permanent tourists" staying with family (as opposed to trying to assimilate into the society as a citizen) and who deal with anything an American would from a legal standpoint via their embassy rather than the US Government then that's fine by me, too. I'd actually be more worried that they'd be exploited by the country they're in who could control them easier for not being able to ask for help in the native language.
Finally, expecting people who wish to join a society to learn the dominant language isn't about control and domination, that would be trying to STAMP OUT the language as opposed to learning a new one to use in court, with police, in hospitals and welfare, tax officials, etc.
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