Acceptance ...

[Shadow]

Do you ever think that homosexuals will be fully accepted in society ?

It's rare that I allow myself to succumb to negative thoughts, and I believe that everything happens in its proper time and place, but sometimes it feels like progress is SO slow ...

... like, the other day, my best mate's mum (whom I've been out to for a while now) - hard-nosed local racist trash that she is - said (behind my back as she doesn't have the balls to say it to my face) that she thinks it's "strange" that two men can be together (and I don't mean she said it nicely either) - basically she was starting down that "he's a FREAK because he's gay" thing ...

... and when word reached my ear of this, I was saddened on two fronts ... firstly because I've never done anything to her to warrant such disrespect; and secondly because I pride myself on being easy to get along with - I'm pretty much plug 'n play. Wouldlikemuscle was really nervous to meet me, and he settled in my company very quickly (he says with pride) - I'm just not the kinda person you need to worry about spending time with ... so for somebody that knows me VERY well to come out with such negative bollocks just kinda upset me ...

... but the POINT I'm making is that this is somebody that has had the opportunity to have me function as the ice-breaker on her prejudice ... and it made me realise that for all the good things I've achieved among my circle of friends, I really HAVEN'T made that much progress in others ... and then I started to think about other things, like one of my personal beefs ... hand-holding in public.

I have no problem with straight couples doing it, no problem at all ... but what burns me up is that I know that, certainly over here, were I to do it in public with Martyn, not only would heads turn, but people would give us shit for it ...

... do you think there will ever be a time when we will truly be accepted ?

I have my own views but I want to hear yours ...

Thanks x.

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!

[TomKat]

Hmm, sadly I think not, certainly not in my lifetime.

I suspect PC will cause more to display a public facade of acceptance but privately / amongst "friends" we are doomed to remain "sausage jockeys" (that one even makes me smile) and the like.

I can sympathize with straight men amongst mates being totally anti as they fear being labeled themselves if they express even a hint of understanding.

What I struggle to comprehend is how vile some (obviously straight) women can be towards us. It's not like we're trying to bed them is it? (Perhaps that's why they hate us?).

Of course all straight men (that don't get us) think all gay men fancy them!

[spotysocks]

People of the older generation i dont think they will overcome their prejudices easily unless they are pushed to the limit and something forces them to think deep and hard and above all look at the selves in a profound self-critical way.
It is usually a painful experience not many will want to.That counts for your friend's mother too, if her son was gay she would might be forced to change her views. I dont think it was personal or she has something against you; have noticed people will discriminate and judge so easy just because they can or feel threaten from a different life style than theirs and seek confirmation that they do the right thing.

There aren't many other places where you can hold hands with you partner and not turn heads but Soho in London just because people expect to see this. Even there sometimes people will stare. It has been only for a few years or maybe a decade that gay rights have been established and although homosexuality have existed for many centuries it is to people's conscience something new they have to get used to.

Will homosexuality be totally accepted from the society? I believe yes , however this will happen when people reach a good level of awareness . We are still in the beginning, remember homosexuality still is illegal at some countries.

Until this happens though just remember it is out of their ignorance and doenst really matter... Everything projects back to us and comes from within so the best response to their bad attitude is to be overshadowed by your positivity and love. You are quite the charmer so it wouldnt be too hard.

[Star Twister]

In answer to your question Shadow NO !!!


I have read your post Spoty and I kinda disagree with you

You see, we are forever having Pride events up and down the country to make people aware that we are here and were queer, but it's getting to the point that us gay guys are walking down the street with our arses hanging out of our trousers and even in some cases full on nudity... Even in America recently a guy was made to apologise to his local government because he wore a 6 foot penis foam costume because it offended the kids and families.... 6 foot penis forced to apologize!!! // Current.

I am hearing more and more that people don't like Brighton Pride (which is now the largest free festival in Europe) because there is too much nakedness and sexuallness in the parade...(sexuallness is I know not a word), Look at the Heinze advert recently pulled, because a couple of hundred people complained,

I have even heard people say we are shoving this whole gay issue down their throats...

I'm just a little worried that as we are winning the battle for equality that their begins the backlash...

I know that people from London come to Brighton to "queer Bash" and it will always happen

Sad I know

But to be honest

I truly believe we as a minority (lets face it we are, sometime we like to think different) will never be fully accepted into any kind of society


(Just my opinion)


[SIZE=2]But I am Still Proud Of Who and What I am
[/SIZE]

[fjp999]

Oh, that penis costume is fantastic!!! Did you notice there is a brown one in the background?

Not quite sure if my mom is getting the alzheimerz or has always been a little nutty... I wont go into all details but thought she was fine with my sexuality. I learned a couple years ago that she has some pretty insane thoughts in her little head. During Hep C treatment the docs suggested that I continue exercising as much as I could so that is what I did. I love to be outside on the bicycle or jogging or stomping thru the snow. Even with full body cramps I was outside in huge snow drifts making my way to the local park to do my rounds. Mom was complaining to my dad, who later told me this, that I was going to the park to have toilet sex 1. aint my thing 2. never saw a hint of that happening in freezing cold toilets at the local park. Dad told me because it was so insane.

I guess she told the neighbor something or other & while this neighbor was over asked me "Why are you doing what you do to your mother?" I stood there dumbfounded as I too am a pretty easy going human. Asked what she was going on about. She said being gay. This neighbor is somewhat religious so I asked her to point me to where either God or Jesus (son of God) said anything against homos. She went off about some this verse or that verse but couldnt remember the exact line. Again, I asked her what God or Jesus said and she looked at me like a light bulb went off somewhere... yeah, others said it but NOT the from the mouth of the great ones. We spoke a bit about the 10 Commandments and I said they were the most important laws from what I understood and I didnt see anything there... Then she said those laws were sooo difficult to follow, wtf. Love thy neighbor... I think some pretty good laws for humanity...

last point. "fag" is one of the most common put downs used by elementary children over here.

I hope it happens in in my life time but doubtful... actually in some ways things seem to be going backwards.

[Shadow]

I agree with the majority of what you guys have said already so I just wanted to pick out a couple of specific points and add my thoughts to them if that's ok ...

I'll go for one point from each of you I think mile:.

I can sympathize with straight men amongst mates being totally anti as they fear being labeled themselves if they express even a hint of understanding.

What I struggle to comprehend is how vile some (obviously straight) women can be towards us. It's not like we're trying to bed them is it? (Perhaps that's why they hate us?).

I too can appreciate that it is their own cowardice and desire to conform to a pack-style mentality that makes them act out in groups against homosexuals (largely because I have only ever had ONE negative experience with a straight man when he's been on his own - all my other straight mates on a 1-2-1 have been ABSOLUTELY sound with me).

As regards the straight women thing ? Perhaps it's for the same reason - a fear of association ... ? Plus since a lot of gay men find straight men attractive (although far shy of the 100% ratio that most straight men would like to think is the case), perhaps they view us as muscling-in on their turf ?

To be honest I've little time for either group when they start to behave like that ...

Will homosexuality be totally accepted from the society? I believe yes , however this will happen when people reach a good level of awareness . We are still in the beginning, remember homosexuality still is illegal at some countries.

Until this happens though just remember it is out of their ignorance and doenst really matter... Everything projects back to us and comes from within so the best response to their bad attitude is to be overshadowed by your positivity and love. You are quite the charmer so it wouldnt be too hard.

Bless you - thanks ! I'm not that good but thanks xx.

I share your view that ultimately acceptance will be achieved, simply because I think patience always wins out ... if you think about, and this sounds really horrible and mercenary ... if 50% of people our age have no problem with homosexuality, then by the time we are our grandparents age (as in that generation has moved on to whatever awaits them after this life), then that's 50% of the oldest generation that don't have a problem with it, and the cycle spreads from there ... so if 75% of our grandchildren don't have a problem with it, by the time they're grandparents themselves, that's a 75% ratio that are ok with it, or at least indifferent to it).

I have even heard people say we are shoving this whole gay issue down their throats...

I'm just a little worried that as we are winning the battle for equality that their begins the backlash...

Conversely I also agree with you babe, because I think that (in my mind certainly) there is a HUGE HUGE line between a passively increasing acceptance (or a strategically-planned manipulation of a passively increasing acceptance) of our kind amongst the great massive -v- a bullish, blunt and almost deliberately antagonistic RAMMING (for want of a better word) of our sexuality into other people's faces ...

I don't "do" Gay Pride events because I find them to be over-the-top, and so if I as a gay man think that way, how can I expect straight people to climb aboard and think "yay this is cool - I'm with it now".

I hope it happens in in my life time but doubtful... actually in some ways things seem to be going backwards.

Sometimes I agree babe - I think we do more to alienate ourselves than serve our goals, if acceptance is ultimately what we want (and I'm perhaps foolishly taking it as read that it is !!).

I guess what's really eating me up inside is that I'm looking at my relationship with my best mate's mother (as a single example) and thinking to myself "I'm trying to make it work ... I don't need to make it work - I find the woman thoroughly objectionable on a number of levels ... but if she's not even willing to meet me halfway, then why should I eat shit because of her slowly-progressively-outdated beliefs, when what I really want to do is just give her a mouthful and never have to deal with her again", y'know ?

... it's a rhetorical question :redface:.

... and so the debate continues - any other thoughts ?

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!

[JohnnyB]

I do believe that gays will be accepted. Homosexuality was only legalised a few decades ago. We have come so far in this short time. As for this woman who said these things behind your back... She is from another generation and I'm sure in her world we are weird (in her world that is). But then thats just her opinion. Even though it wasn't fair to say that about someone she knows. She could have been a bit more constructive and maybe talk to you about it.

Futhermore, I really do believe that prejudism, rasicm and discrimination all comes down to one thing... Lack of knowledge. We can promote who we are till the cows come home but they have to listen first. I do think it is a shame about religion and homosexuality conflicting. I am a believer myself and people have made commets (constructively) about who I am and what I do. But unfortunately who loves their neighbour anyway these day?

[marshlander]

The question you raise, Shadow, is not really anything to do with a single issue, or even something as easy to identify as homophobia. There are little bits of self-awareness, identity, family experience, custom and practice, law, history, religion, conflict, the pressure and rate of changes in society, friendships and other self-selected allegiances, ethics, work environments, priorities, perceptions of safety ...

I'd like to think that we are making progress towards a more integrated society, but the nature of the species seems to be that we need to align ourselves along tribal lines. Yesterday's news about a mob of thirty who attacked two policemen after a girl was asked to pick up some litter is an example in another context. In the Fens the "other" tribe has traditionally been Romani travellers, although we can create monsters from any group we perceive to be different. When I moved to Norfolk in the mid-80s it was still within living memory that strangers were customarily stoned if they dared come too near one of the villages in particular :eek:

I'd like to think that I would not be influenced to join this kind of behaviour and I am usually very careful about the language I use when referring to groups of people. Then I think about what we've seen in former Yugoslavia where neighbours turned on each other and I wonder if there could ever be circumstances where I would allow myself to be drawn into violent conflict. To be honest, while I hope I never would, I don't really know for sure.

While I can, I shall be myself. I shall expect to be treated the way I would expect to treat others. I demand equal consideration and fair treatment under the law. If people were ultimately reasonable we would see no bullying at school or in the workplace and there would be no crimes against the individual or against property. People would not allow others to do their thinking for them and would not feel the need to join groups for self-protection. Group membership leads to groupthink. Groupthink means "we're right".

What it comes down to, I suspect, is that we are an easy target. What makes us "different" is not race or religion where the dynamic is naturally towards groups. We are mostly non-aligned individuals.

Could it be that it's much more to do with power and finding a place within a pecking order? Women have hardly been treated fairly in most societies, yet they are certainly not a minority. If we can't get it right for half the population it'll probably be a while yet before things are right for us.

[Smurlos]

Do you ever think that homosexuals will be fully accepted in society ?

It's rare that I allow myself to succumb to negative thoughts, and I believe that everything happens in its proper time and place, but sometimes it feels like progress is SO slow ...

... like, the other day, my best mate's mum (whom I've been out to for a while now) - hard-nosed local racist trash that she is - said (behind my back as she doesn't have the balls to say it to my face) that she thinks it's "strange" that two men can be together (and I don't mean she said it nicely either) - basically she was starting down that "he's a FREAK because he's gay" thing ...

... and when word reached my ear of this, I was saddened on two fronts ... firstly because I've never done anything to her to warrant such disrespect; and secondly because I pride myself on being easy to get along with - I'm pretty much plug 'n play. Wouldlikemuscle was really nervous to meet me, and he settled in my company very quickly (he says with pride) - I'm just not the kinda person you need to worry about spending time with ... so for somebody that knows me VERY well to come out with such negative bollocks just kinda upset me ...

... but the POINT I'm making is that this is somebody that has had the opportunity to have me function as the ice-breaker on her prejudice ... and it made me realise that for all the good things I've achieved among my circle of friends, I really HAVEN'T made that much progress in others ... and then I started to think about other things, like one of my personal beefs ... hand-holding in public.

I have no problem with straight couples doing it, no problem at all ... but what burns me up is that I know that, certainly over here, were I to do it in public with Martyn, not only would heads turn, but people would give us shit for it ...

... do you think there will ever be a time when we will truly be accepted ?

I have my own views but I want to hear yours ...

Thanks x.

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!

:mad: It angers me too. I feel that walking around side by side not *touching* the one I love makes it feel like we're ashamed to be together or that we're just friends? Why shouldn't we be able to walk confidently hand in hand smiling at eachother? :mad: Always conscious of those that are looking over, wondering what's gonna happen if a group of guys see us kiss goodnight in the car etc. It's utter bollox lol.

[Shadow]

Marshlander is correct in that this is a debate that transcends a single point, but single points I feel be used to illustrate the wider arguments.

I guess another major gripe of mine is that we strive to function as a part of the society into which we are born, but which ultimately shuns our very being at times because it finds us somehow objectionable ...

It just makes me feel disillusioned ... life shouldn't have to be an uphill struggle ... and I know that there are PLENTY of good points, so I'm not moaning disproportionately ... it's just saddening :frown:.

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!