Acceptance ...

[Shadow]

Your right, in the past gay pride has done a good job in promoting our existance, but its aims are outdated now. It's alright celebrating our freedom but h[SIZE=2]ow's the gay community supposed to be taken seriously if we turn something as important as a toleration march into a joke? Fighting for acceptance and a good public profile are critical battles for any minority community and all gay pride does is promote a negative steryotype. I agree with you that pride should not be toned down soely to appease the right wing, it should be toned down to better reflect the image of the gay community. By having a more Conservative festival we are not stepping back into the closet, rather we are showing the world that homosexuals are normal people who can be encountered in all aspects of everyday life and as such are not going to go away any time soon.[/SIZE]

If you were a politician babe, you'd get my vote (and I HATE, and deliberately distance myself from, politics, so that really is an accolade believe me).

I agree with you again - I think that a sense of normality is what's sought in most cases ... I think (and I certainly speak for myself and I'm pretty sure others) what gay people want is to be considered as "normal" as anybody else ... so that people don't turn heads when they look at you; they don't choke when they see you holding another boy's hand on the street; and they don't continually ask you 20 questions about your background, sexuality and so on ... 'coz as nice as it can be sometimes, it can be equally annoying at others ... you don't walk up to a black guy and go "so what's it like being black ... what makes you black ... did you choose to be black ?" and so on - it's patronising and borderline insulting. I'm not a case study OR the fountain of all gay knowledge - I'm a person.

... so to my mind gay pride events - or indeed ANY event that promotes our sexuality as some kind of spectacle, whatever the reasons be, are not something I have any time or interest in associating myself with ...

I appreciate, and respect, that a lot of effort and hard work has gone in by our forebearers to earn some (hopefully) respect for us in society, but I don't think we have to niche-market ourselves as being different and in need of our own set of rules and so on - I just think the existing rules ought to be flexible enough as to encompass us, and then it will all be sweet ...

... well ... it won't, but it will be a step in the right direction.

@Shadow, I think you somewhat took the wrong meaning to my first comment concerning going backwards... I dont think we are doing anything to alienate ourselves to others... that is already built into the "Other". I do feel that the world is becoming more conservative. Maybe it is just about being under a Bush administration and the rest of the world is enjoying a surge of Liberalism - I hope someone is enjoying it all.

I think people are naturally apprehensive and wary of things that they don't relate to ... and unfortunately, quite often we fall into that bracket. But yeah - I had misunderstood what you were saying on that one babe (sowwy) xx :redface: xx.

hello can i ask a queston. if someone is horrible to you how do you now if it becase you are gay or becase a diffirent reason. like if they were very nasty to you and you dident now why. thnak you josephmile:

You're so sweet - of course you can babe x

I suppose it depends on what they've said - some people are nasty because they're trying to impress their friends by looking big or hard ... sometimes they make it more personal ... ultimately all people that behave like that are dicks ...

... is this something that somebody's said to you ? Or to a friend of yours ? Or ... ? Do you wanna talk to us about it ?

xx

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!

[andy_123]

Far be it from me to proclaim that i'm better than everyone else (i AM, but it's not really my place to say it) but there are some aspects of this debate that worry me. Everybody seems to have this feeling that it's all about 'us' and 'them' in terms of scoiety, as though gay and straight people are intrinsically different somehow and don't all live in the one, plural, society. Really rather than stating ourselves that we have our own society and that we should be 'accepted' or 'tolerated' (i HATE that word, why should someone put up with the way gays are, though it burdens them??) we ought to argue, as well we can, that really we're not any different at all. Gays are people, gays fall in love, gays have sex, gays get their hearts broken, gays are too readily classified. Same can be said of any group, whether it is a majority or a minority.

In many ways there are benefits to having separate communities, and humanity itself is a tribal species. Christians, Muslims and Jews living in the United Kingdom can all identify themselves as separate peoples with different ways of life but at the same time they can all say that they are British and that’s the community that unites them.

We all need communities to identify ourselves with. There will never be a complete merging between homosexuality and heterosexuality, we will always be two different peoples. The benefits to this are that the gay community can focus themselves on gay issues whereas the straight community can focus itself on straight issues. How on earth would we ever get anything done if humans were all lumped together into a single society with no subdivisions?

It is impossible for our communities to ever merge, however we can still work together like the religions mentioned earlier. What’s standing in the way of that co-operation however is the negative public image of homosexuality perpetrated by the world media, gay pride events and to an extent the way that some homosexuals still live. If you where the heterosexual community would you want to team up with a group that’s so irresponsible that they advertise their sexual promiscuity during the midst of a HIV crisis? Gays are tolerated because we are seen as a burden, if we show that we are a benefit instead then perhaps we will be accepted.

But seriously, i don't see why we don't just argue that we're essentially the same. Because we are.

Exactly, your family background has taught you from a young age that even though we have differences we are all still essentially a part of the same group. Individuals like yourself make up commuities and communities make up our overall society. As you say we need to show the rest of society that our community is like theirs before we can be fully accepted.

[marshlander]

hello can i ask a queston. if someone is horrible to you how do you now if it becase you are gay or becase a diffirent reason. like if they were very nasty to you and you dident now why. thnak you josephmile:

Hi Joseph,

That is a very hard question! Sometimes it is really difficult to tell the difference. The only clue you really have is if they use bad names to say something about being gay. It's a shame, but some people seem to like being unkind.

[andy_123]

If you were a politician babe, you'd get my vote (and I HATE, and deliberately distance myself from, politics, so that really is an accolade believe me).

Thank you Shadow, for somebody who distances themselves away from politics you are very good at debating mile:

I agree with you again - I think that a sense of normality is what's sought in most cases ... I think (and I certainly speak for myself and I'm pretty sure others) what gay people want is to be considered as "normal" as anybody else ... so that people don't turn heads when they look at you; they don't choke when they see you holding another boy's hand on the street; and they don't continually ask you 20 questions about your background, sexuality and so on ... 'coz as nice as it can be sometimes, it can be equally annoying at others ... you don't walk up to a black guy and go "so what's it like being black ... what makes you black ... did you choose to be black ?" and so on - it's patronising and borderline insulting. I'm not a case study OR the fountain of all gay knowledge - I'm a person.

I agree completely, by promoting how normal homosexuality is we are creating a world where we don't have to hide anymore.

... so to my mind gay pride events - or indeed ANY event that promotes our sexuality as some kind of spectacle, whatever the reasons be, are not something I have any time or interest in associating myself with ...

Excellent, although wether we like it or not we are associated with it because they are the public face of the gay community and we are a part of that community. Somehting actively needs to be done to either tame pride or distance ourselves from it in order to takethe next step towards acceptance.

[marshlander]

... What’s standing in the way of that co-operation however is the negative public image of homosexuality perpetrated by the world media, gay pride events and to an extent the way that some homosexuals still live. If you where the heterosexual community would you want to team up with a group that’s so irresponsible that they advertise their sexual promiscuity during the midst of a HIV crisis? Gays are tolerated because we are seen as a burden, if we show that we are a benefit instead then perhaps we will be accepted ...

Really? I assume you have ventured out into a town centre after dark? Do I base my generalisations about heterosexuals on what I see there? Maybe I would be better informed by the sensational revelations of reality television shows that follow the adventures of young Brits on holiday in Spanish resorts? If that doesn't help, how about that marriage is currently at its lowest rate since 1895 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=322 or that 27% of marriages fail because of adultery? (http://marriage.about.com/b/2005/01/24/u...survey.htm) or perhaps I should just watch the freak show that is Big Brother to tell me all I need to know about human behaviour? Better still, I could simply rely on what the popular media reports about the BB house, without even bothering to watch. Ideas are much easier to come by secondhand :frown:

What I'm really saying is that most people have an opinion about something and then look for supporting evidence, much in the way that I have just done. Health statistics are grim and yes, we could all be more aware of the dangers. It is almost certain I haven't seen what you've noticed, but to make assumptions about people's private behaviour from the way they dress up at a parade is unrealistic. No one is forcing you to wear a penis-costume, or your best drag for that matter. If you think the balance has swung too far in favour of the sensational at Pride, you have the option of celebrating in your civvies, as I and many others have done. To damn the whole event because you feel uncomfortable hints at the possibility internalised homophobia. You could make a whole different argument if you look elsewhere for statistics ... self-help and advocacy groups, community volunteer services, proportion of gay men and women in the caring professions of health, education and social work.

It's not really a case of straights teaming up with gays. That's too great a simplification. We are all people with multi-faceted lives and we also form groups by the nature of the activities we undertake. In those cases, sexual orientation doesn't make a scrap of difference to the task at hand.

Besides which, some of my best friends are straight

[andy_123]

Really? I assume you have ventured out into a town centre after dark? Do I base my generalisations about heterosexuals on what I see there? Maybe I would be better informed by the sensational revelations of reality television shows that follow the adventures of young Brits on holiday in Spanish resorts? If that doesn't help, how about that marriage is currently at its lowest rate since 1895 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=322 or that 27% of marriages fail because of adultery? (http://marriage.about.com/b/2005/01/24/u...survey.htm) or perhaps I should just watch the freak show that is Big Brother to tell me all I need to know about human behaviour? Better still, I could simply rely on what the popular media reports about the BB house, without even bothering to watch. Ideas are much easier to come by secondhand :frown:

You're right it would be foolish of me to base my opinion of all hetrosexuals on what I see in the media or the big brother house. However the newspapers/ BB are not the public face of the straight community. Gay pride is the public face of homosexuality and we need to consider very carefully what we want that public face to represent.

No one is forcing you to wear a penis-costume, or your best drag for that matter. If you think the balance has swung too far in favour of the sensational at Pride, you have the option of celebrating in your civvies, as I and many others have done. To damn the whole event because you feel uncomfortable hints at the possibility internalised homophobia.

We could go down and celebrate in our civvies but no ones going to take any notice of that are they? The people who really want acceptance for homosexuality will allways be overshadowed by those who just want to have a bit of fun in a penis costume. I don't damn the event because I feel uncomfortable with it, I damn the event because I believe that such irresponsible behaviour poses a very real threat to the future security of the gay community.

You could make a whole different argument if you look elsewhere for statistics ... self-help and advocacy groups, community volunteer services, proportion of gay men and women in the caring professions of health, education and social work.

You could but who do you know thats going to look for those statistics? What most hetrosexuals learn about the gay community they learn from sources such as gay pride. I'm not saying its right but its true. Most straight people are not going to judge their opinions on homosexuality from well researched statistics, they're going to judge on what they can see infront of them and thats pride. All i'm advocating is bringing these statistics to the fore, remove the negative image of gay pride from the publics attention and replace it (among other things) with the positive ones you just mentioned.

It's not really a case of straights teaming up with gays. That's too great a simplification. We are all people with multi-faceted lives and we also form groups by the nature of the activities we undertake. In those cases, sexual orientation doesn't make a scrap of difference to the task at hand.

Besides which, some of my best friends are straight

You're right, humans do form all sorts of groups, however the negative image placed on our sexuality can affect how we are seen in those aswell. If I were to join a knitting society for example I would be seen as a "steryotypical homosexual" because homosexuality is associated with effeminate behaviour. If on the other hand a hetrosexual joined a knitting society he would not be tarred with that label. My sexuality may not make a difference on how well I could knit but it would certainly make a differece to how I was perceived within the group.

[sox-and-the-city]

Hokay...

*tries to collect thoughts, fails, decides to rant on anyway*


As far as pride goes i've no problems with the concept of having a big, glittery parade proclaiming 'GAYS are here!!' I do, however, have some serious problems with the idea of a big, glittery, cock-fest of a parade proclaiming 'Not only are GAYS here, but just LOOK at what they're prepared to flash!!'

There's a very delicate nuance there. Pride is all about, to put it patronisingly, gay pride, right?? I personally don't see what a giant dildo or a midget drag queen in a diamante studded bikini has to do with that any more than i can see what a straight guy wearing a similar costume for kicks has to do with his sexuality OR his ability to be humorous.

It's not exactly like society does us any favours with the way we're portrayed as either the hulking, sex-mad adonis who spends twenty hours a day getting laid and the other four in the gym or in a mirror perfecting his appearance or the floaty fairy princess who, although ostensibly clean-cut, blurs the lines with all the colours of his infinite rainbow and is so feminine and high-pitched while at the time completely sexless. Gays should seek to portray ourselves as we are: normal (for want of a better word) with the same sense of fun as anybody else.

Conversely we do ourselves no favours with OUR attitude either. Since when did 'that's the way it is so deal with it' EVER do anything to change anybody's mind about anything?? The way we portray ourselves inevitably lands us in either the first, the second or some combination of the two brackets i already mentioned. I myself am as guilty of this as anyone, and i'll admit that. Maybe that time could be spent challenging people to REALLY think about how they treat us, and proving we're all one big clan. Takes all sorts and all that. Maybe not. Maybe they way we show ourselves is as much our creation as it is anybody else's, and we should work on adding other levels to it rather than making great changes to what we have already. Prove that gays can like pretty things and still work the microwave and maybe even bitch while they eat steak, or that they do the same things as everybody else...

I do realise i've used that kind of language explaining my last point, but still with the 'us' and 'them'. We're all just people. Care to explain to me exactly what STRAIGHT issues are?? Aren't they just issues?? The only reason there are 'gay' issues is because we have a niche within society which is our ultimate restriction. The day that we prove to the masses that sexuality is like preferring different types of cake will be the day we have all taken the first real step to a true assimilation. I don't want to be accepted by society, i want to be a PART of society. Surely that's what our REAL goal should be?? That's surely when we'll have all the things we all say we want, like being able to hold hands in the street without fear of repercussions and to be able to 'shop gay' or get married and all the rest.

I'm not saying it'll necessarily happen and i'm definitely not saying it's going to be easy but if we don't try we'll certainly never get there...

xxx

[sox-and-the-city]

Oh and by the by, not really keen on the whole knitting example there.

That's like saying cooking is effeminate.

I could rant about the way people perceive knitters for even longer than I could the way people perceive gays...

xxx

[andy_123]

There's a very delicate nuance there. Pride is all about, to put it patronisingly, gay pride, right?? I personally don't see what a giant dildo or a midget drag queen in a diamante studded bikini has to do with that any more than i can see what a straight guy wearing a similar costume for kicks has to do with his sexuality OR his ability to be humorous.

There shouldn't be a difference between them. However the negative image of homosexuality purpotrated in part by gay pride festivals has inevitably connected gays with drag queens, giant dildos etc etc. As such when a person sees a homosexual wearing drag they think "thats the only image of homosexuals i've ever seen so thats what all homosexuals must do". On the other hand if that same person where to see a hetrosexual wearing drag they would think "I know that hetrosexuals do not do this very often, this man must just dress up in drag because he has a strange sense of humour."

It's not exactly like society does us any favours with the way we're portrayed as either the hulking, sex-mad adonis who spends twenty hours a day getting laid and the other four in the gym or in a mirror perfecting his appearance or the floaty fairy princess who, although ostensibly clean-cut, blurs the lines with all the colours of his infinite rainbow and is so feminine and high-pitched while at the time completely sexless. Gays should seek to portray ourselves as we are: normal (for want of a better word) with the same sense of fun as anybody else.

I agree completely, we should try and portray ourselves as normal, however that can only happen after we have removed our negative image.

I do realise i've used that kind of language explaining my last point, but still with the 'us' and 'them'. We're all just people. Care to explain to me exactly what STRAIGHT issues are?? Aren't they just issues?? The only reason there are 'gay' issues is because we have a niche within society which is our ultimate restriction.

I'm sorry to say that I don't have an intimate knowledge of straight society and as such can't give you detailed information on their issues. Unless your part of a community then you can't really say what they're problems are. Off the top of my head I would say that reproduction is an issue concerning the hetrosexual community more than the gay one. You wouldn't often see a gay rally campaiging for the NHS to spend more money on birth control pills because thats an issue concerning hetrosexuals not homosexuals.

The day that we prove to the masses that sexuality is like preferring different types of cake will be the day we have all taken the first real step to a true assimilation. I don't want to be accepted by society, i want to be a PART of society. Surely that's what our REAL goal should be?? That's surely when we'll have all the things we all say we want, like being able to hold hands in the street without fear of repercussions and to be able to 'shop gay' or get married and all the rest.

I think we are arguing over wording here. By accepted I meant being as closely assimilated into mainstream society as possible whilst still retaining our own culture. As such, yes, on a top down "human" level it will look as if we all just prefer different types of cake, just as Christians, Muslims, Jews etc are the same except they worship different religions. On a more complex "cultural" level however we will all be different because we all come from a differnt cultural background, part of which will be determined by sexuality.

[andy_123]

Oh and by the by, not really keen on the whole knitting example there.

That's like saying cooking is effeminate.

I could rant about the way people perceive knitters for even longer than I could the way people perceive gays...

xxx

My apologies Sox-and-the-city, knitting was simply the first example to spring to mind. I'm not trying to say that knitting is effeminate i'm saying that it is perceived to be effeminate by a lot of people.