Affermative action: yes or no?

[HumbleTangerine]

In my country, the topic of affirmative action is one of the most debated questions at the moment. To be more specific, there are some political forces in favor of official legislation that would make sure governmental and private companies live up to certain standards. Usually this means that at least 40% of its members have to be women.

For me personally, this is a rather big dilemma. On one hand, gender discrimination is pretty common even in our modern society (and it almost always targets women) but demands of affirmative action policies seem like excessive governmental meddling to me. It also creates a paradox of battling gender inequalities by reversing the discrimination. Most of all though, I simply feel that someone's merits, achievements, work experience, character etc. should be the deciding factor in potential employments - NOT somebody's gender.

The way I see it we have other methods to our disposal when it comes to making the workplace more equal. We can use legislation to make it easier for women to report cases of perceived gender discrimination and we can use thorough national investigations to eliminate unwarranted payment gaps between men and women. Most of all we can free the coming generations from normative stereotypes by promoting gender pedagogy from an early age. These things combined will hopefully bring about change to the situation; a slower change unfortunately, but one that attacks the root of the problems rather than just the symptoms. What do you people think?

[cftxp]

WARNING: Anyone who reads this may disagree with this position, so for the sake of your senses, make sure to either read it in its entirety OR don't read it at all and just contribute to the debate!

I'm gay, have autism, and (depending on the year) may be considered low-income so in America, I'd be the perfect affirmative action case if not for the fact that I'm also Asian (we're considered an over-represented minority - though that's also up for debate). In my personal opinion, affirmative action isn't exactly the perfect solution but it is a good start when it comes to the inclusion of minorities or underprivileged groups in society. The problem is, of course, the prevalence of reverse discrimination but that's often the argument by the "other side" to justify discrimination to begin with or at least take it out of the legal context. Also, this can be problematic due to the fact that standards may be lowered for individuals who happen to get their jobs or be admitted to a top university according to affirmative action. However, I did read somewhere that students in America who were admitted to certain schools due to race-based affirmative action had better GPAs than those who weren't. In my view, this is due to the fact that minority students feel that they have to battle stereotypes in order to be taken seriously by a discriminatory society at-large. We should also remember that under-represented groups happen to have less, in terms of resources, and so they aren't as likely to have the same sort of qualifications and connections that often lead to these coveted positions, at least not compared to individuals in the majority or wealthier classes.

As for how we can combat such attitudes that lead to the need for affirmative action to begin with, there is a reason why I don't believe that affirmative action is at all "perfect" or even permanent. But the theory behind affirmative action is that if enough disadvantaged/under-represented/minority groups are able to gain these positions or an education, then possibly, the numbers will improve and so race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. will no longer be such an issue, economically speaking anyway. This does sound good (in theory) but there are major flaws with it, mostly in the sense that without societal attitudes actually changing - these groups will continue to be disadvantaged. I heard a news story just last week about how a dumbass of a supervisor was imposing policies similar to Jim Crow laws on his African-American employees, knowing that they don't have a choice (the area is limited economically and so those jobs were important to them). In my opinion, things can get better for those of us who happen to be disadvantaged when it comes to the stereotypical sense, but with some positions, you can't rely on government to do all the work, and that's where advocates and activists come in and bring the humanity back to any of these "arguments."

[Adam]

In the US, affirmative action issues are, for the most part, race related. Recently, the Supreme Court voted to uphold Michigan's ban on using affirmative action as a deciding factor in college admissions. Racial minority status can no longer be considered.
To me, this seems very short-sighted. Education is what qualifies people for jobs. If minorities were afforded the chance to get appropriate education, they could compete equally for jobs.

I've heard all the arguments, pro and con. and am somehow left with the feeling that, in terms of human rights, our society has done a U-turn and is headed in the wrong direction.

[ChadCoxRox]

In the US, affirmative action issues are, for the most part, race related. Recently, the Supreme Court voted to uphold Michigan's ban on using affirmative action as a deciding factor in college admissions. Racial minority status can no longer be considered.
To me, this seems very short-sighted. Education is what qualifies people for jobs. If minorities were afforded the chance to get appropriate education, they could compete equally for jobs.

I've heard all the arguments, pro and con. and am somehow left with the feeling that, in terms of human rights, our society has done a U-turn and is headed in the wrong direction.

so if I am a member of a minority I no longer have equal access? or I have no further economic incentives or assisyance because of my race?

[HumbleTangerine]

In the US, affirmative action issues are, for the most part, race related. Recently, the Supreme Court voted to uphold Michigan's ban on using affirmative action as a deciding factor in college admissions. Racial minority status can no longer be considered.
To me, this seems very short-sighted. Education is what qualifies people for jobs. If minorities were afforded the chance to get appropriate education, they could compete equally for jobs.

I've heard all the arguments, pro and con. and am somehow left with the feeling that, in terms of human rights, our society has done a U-turn and is headed in the wrong direction.

In my opinion, the only deciding factor as to whether someone should get a spot at a particular university should be their study achievements. Legislation should prohibit schools from refusing to accept someone on the basis of gender, ethnicity, functionality etc. and a collectively financed education system makes sure every child is given the same possibilities. To me this is justice.

[Arkansota]

I'm gay, have autism,

OMG me too friend me aspie brothah

[Aike]

We should also remember that under-represented groups happen to have less, in terms of resources, and so they aren't as likely to have the same sort of qualifications and connections that often lead to these coveted positions, at least not compared to individuals in the majority or wealthier classes.

^What he said.

And by "resources" one should specify that it's not necessarily just financial resources we're talking about, but also social, cultural, cognitive etc. If it was just about money one would have difficulties explaining, for example, why the socio-economic/class background influences one's educational outcomes even in countries where higher education is free (like Finland and other Nordic countries). I don't really mind affirmative action, especially when it comes to representation in politics and decision making.

One should also bear in mind that the standards we use to measure individuals' performance are not always neutral in terms of class, gender, race, etc. In other words, it's not only that underprivileged groups fail to measure up because of the lack of resources available to them, it can also be the case that they fail to measure up because the standards we use are biased in favor of the privileged group. In such cases the question is not to help underprivileged groups to achieve the level of their privileged counterparts but to change the standards themselves.

[trialbyerror]

Hi Humble...
South Africa
Everything has or is collapsing due to affirmative action, Billions of Rands are squandered due to the appointment of incompetent people in the name of affirmative action

We no longer have a functioning education system, water security, internal security, external security, utility supply continuity, or maintenance of infrastructure.

Local municipalities are bankrupt and unable to provide basic services, many of which have been placed under curator-ship, unfortunately the curator's are BEE (Black empowerment / affirmative action placements exacerbating the problem)

The department of interior can no longer determine who is and is not a legitimate citizen of SA.
The police are corrupt and inept (police dockets are bought for as little as R120 (about 6 Euro)

This is first hand experience...

It is so bad, I am, and have been "prepping" to ensure some kind of fall back plan for me and mine
(Google prepping)

[Pix]

I'm not sure what to think either, but one thing I have observed, every single person who complained "affirmative action" cost them a place at an Ivy League school or job struck me as the type who would've been anyone's second pick anyway, and I haven't found any who got their foot in the door via affirmative action to be any more incompetent than anyone else (those who are incompetent can easily be replaced by another who fits the standards of affirmative action).

Still, it tends to amuse me whenever I heard "how hard wealthy Christian white male heterosexuals have it."

[50Plus]

In the ideal world (that only exists within advanced alien species), affirmative action would not be necessary for there would be sufficient 'anti discriminatory' controls in place. We do not live in such a world. Programs are therefore necessary if we as a society believe that 'everyone is equal'.

Sadly, affirmative action has crossed some lines that make it laughable and somewhat dangerous (eliminating physical fitness aspects for emergency responders). Where it is also problematic is when it is attempted to implement policies very quickly for whatever reason - this is the situation in South Africa and in northern Canada.

In took generations for the white male bastion to figure out how not to hide their incompetence. It cannot be expected of the minority element to figure that out in a decade or two. And generally that is all that is occurring - the white male bastion in there overeagerness to maintain power and control are essentially working double time to hide incompetence within their ranks.

And tho is is a gay forum, generally the orieintation is not as important as the sex and color of the skin. Then again, in non white countries, the skin color may not be white.