The rise of religious extremism, whether Islamic or Christian or whatever, is one of the biggest issues we face these days. In the US, I abhor the right wing Christians who seem to rely on an argument that goes something like, "Well, who could possibly disagree with the bible and out traditional Christian values?" Lots of people can and do, righties. While the basic drift of the mainline Protestant movement has been tolerated as a norm for a very long time, it is simply not the only player on the block. Sooner or later, people begin to think and upsets are to be had. Witness the unseating of Eric Cantor. Now his opponent is supported by a bank with a tilt toward Ayn Rand, but he seems a bit scattered. The Tea Party, while it has influence, is not universally loved and is more and more recognized as disruptive. Church attendance is going down. Things are not all rosy for the christian right. Give it all time.
CCRox Wrote:Lastly, and if you premise holds, most importantly,
Would you be willing to go to war and lay down your life for freedom?
Whose freedom?
When most people fight for freedom it's typically not that of the People or even their own.
Heck, it gets so bad that "freedom" is used to justify slavery (as in the Texas Revolution, which for all their shouting "liberty" included the right to own slaves that Mexico no longer allowed). Even today many organizations with fascist leanings keep chanting "freedom" and "liberty" and may even put that in part of the title of their organization when they're actually attacking freedom and liberty of others rather than preserving their own.
I thank myself for my freedom when I was a teen, not the system or those who support it. Things like what language we speak seem pretty irrelevant to me, oppression is everywhere, and the US has the most people in prison (and death row) in the world and one of the most complicated legal systems, so I'm not about to say the US is the most free country on Earth either.
And that aside I'm not sure what you have in mind. Gays are so tied into regular society (since we're born into it after all) that the divided loyalties would be intense (though by the same token this helps elicit sympathy from regular society when they see people they like, love, know, and respect are gay, though often this only became possible after such people got to know the gay individual before realizing s/he is gay).
Offhand the very idea of gays being willing to use violence (which, btw, I'm not necessarily averse to, certainly not in self-defense against others including the state, but suspicious in the extreme whenever used as a political tool) reminds me of the White Fang, in case you're wondering what image that statement of yours evoked in me:
(The White Fang gets explained almost immediately after the intro.)
In a world of LGBT vs Straights physically, LGBT would loose every time.
I don't think that world will ever come BECAUSE you will have the gays/family the gays are in, as well as the enlightened ones + a majority of democrats. I believe even some Republicans that realize infringing on personal rights of gays is allowing government powers they (the republicans) are fighting against to begin with, all vs those ignorant enough to be willing to physically mentally or otherwise cause temporary or permanent harm to the LGBT community on a ridiculous premise (whatever it is). Another thing leaning away from a genocide or persecution is the eroding of religious foundations and more reliance on science/higher learning vs God(s) to explain everything. To further push away from the idea of mass genocide or persecution the minorities that combined outnumber the majority usually vote democrat, just as fears of gays taking over the world or causing divine retribution spring up and more and more blind religious hardliners want to eliminate gays and vote to that end, the stronger the minorities and families and supporters will vote in someone else. If a tea party member makes the Presidency I will type this post on printer paper and eat it.... I believe we need a crossbreed of Republican and Democrat in office to balance the country out.
Honestly, the world has always been fucked up. We are living in the most progressive time in human history, even with all this crap going on. But we're aware of it, and therefore we are able to make a difference. Think about it this way, fifty years ago, many groups were suppressed in this country. That is, anyone who wasn't white, male, christian, straight, etc. but that has changed. Why think so negatively? Yeah, humanity sucks, but it deserves at least some faith. Give humanity the faith it deserves. How can we all progress with all this hate? Show the haters that we are not worth hating. Most of the haters know nothing of which they hate, that's why they are so hateful.
Bluelight Wrote:Honestly, the world has always been fucked up. We are living in the most progressive time in human history, even with all this crap going on. But we're aware of it, and therefore we are able to make a difference. Think about it this way, fifty years ago, many groups were suppressed in this country. That is, anyone who wasn't white, male, christian, straight, etc. but that has changed. Why think so negatively? Yeah, humanity sucks, but it deserves at least some faith. Give humanity the faith it deserves. How can we all progress with all this hate? Show the haters that we are not worth hating. Most of the haters know nothing of which they hate, that's why they are so hateful.
Fascism coming to power is always a possibility, but I believe it is very unlikely. The haters are very loud because the world they knew is coming to end and the louder they scream, the more absurd and extreme they seem to the rest of the world. They are so loud that it can make it seem there numbers are greater than what they really are. GLBT activists have done an amazing job in bringing about change, but at least some of the credit must go to our haters. Some of their words and actions are so horrible and hate-filled, it makes people want to distance themselves from them and it makes people see there really is no logic in opposing equality for gays and lesbians.
Iceblink Wrote:Fascism coming to power is always a possibility, but I believe it is very unlikely. The haters are very loud because the world they knew is coming to end and the louder they scream, the more absurd and extreme they seem to the rest of the world. They are so loud that it can make it seem there numbers are greater than what they really are. GLBT activists have done an amazing job in bringing about change, but at least some of the credit must go to our haters. Some of their words and actions are so horrible and hate-filled, it makes people want to distance themselves from them and it makes people see there really is no logic in opposing equality for gays and lesbians.
So true. I've even known former haters who have admitted to going with the flow because that was all they knew before they realized what hurt they were inflicting on other human beings.
AlohaS Wrote:You're right chicken little...the sky is falling. My bad, I forgot to check Wikipedia.
Oh well, you completely ignored everything I said in the response to your first comment and digressed to silly name calling as a way of either mocking me or showing everyone but me how arrogant you can be. However you have not yet presented one bit of reason or fact to this dialog.
I've been seriously seeking any proof whatsoever to guide me from believing this could be possible. Having looked and looked and asked and asked I've found no one and nothing that has made me believe otherwise. In fact most people, liberal or conservative with a good knowledge of history that I've talked to have agreed that it is a very real possibility based on the existing historical examples of violence after social changes in the USA.
I'm not OCD over this and don't devote enormous time or energy to it because I do have a life I enjoy. Also I do my best to look at all ideas I come upon with a mind that analyzes them objectively. Anytime I'd wish to dispute something anyone else has written you can bet your wheels I will do it with hard core facts and not fluffed and blustered canned rhetoric I could have cut and pasted from the contestants in any cable tv news commentary debate.
In fact... your words remind me of a hilarious debate I had recently with people from the UK and Ireland explaining to ME, a veteran and US citizen what the 2nd amendment meant and how all of us Americans with gun permits are holding our own government hostage... They had no idea what they were talking and wholly unwilling to consider any other perspectives than their own, even a perspective of someone who might know what he's talking about.
Aike Wrote:Bottom line first: pay attention to economics.
My eternal paranoid fear is that the LGBT population will be drawn onto the ideological battleground, where gay rights are being opposed and supported for all the wrong reasons. What I fear is that working people might oppose gay rights, but not because of any religious conservatism or because of plain intolerance, but solely because "the gay agenda" can be seen to represent the will of the ruling class (politicians, the corporate/financial elite, the bourgeoisie). "Why are you giving gay people rights when we're being kicked out of work? Why do you care about them but not me?" etc. My other fear is that gay rights are being used as an ideological weapon to divide and rule the working-class and undermine whatever is left of their potential for political resistance.
The guy who introduced me to this theory actually mentioned this exact thing. If the working class turn against gay equality AND fundies also turn against gay equality politicians will begin to turn against gay equality OR be replace by politicians who are.
Your fear about gay equality being used to divide people has been brought up by many bloggers already and is worthy of concern.
I can sum up the way I feel about this by telling you this....
I go hiking A LOT in the Black Hills nearby. Beautiful country with lots of wildlife but not just a few bears or cougars. I HOPE I never get killed and eaten by a bear or cougar. If you catch me out of my jeep walking in the hills I'll have a handgun, a can of bear pepper spray, a sling open umbrella with huge evil eyes on it and a small canned compressed air horn. I HOPE I never have to use any of them
I also have a storm shelter for tornadoes but I HOPE I never need to use it....
I HOPE this prediction turns out to be nothing but I'm not going to be caught by surprise if it does happen.
memechose Wrote:Oh well, you completely ignored everything I said in the response to your first comment and digressed to silly name calling as a way of either mocking me or showing everyone but me how arrogant you can be. However you have not yet presented one bit of reason or fact to this dialog.
I've been seriously seeking any proof whatsoever to guide me from believing this could be possible. Having looked and looked and asked and asked I've found no one and nothing that has made me believe otherwise. In fact most people, liberal or conservative with a good knowledge of history that I've talked to have agreed that it is a very real possibility based on the existing historical examples of violence after social changes in the USA.
I'm not OCD over this and don't devote enormous time or energy to it because I do have a life I enjoy. Also I do my best to look at all ideas I come upon with a mind that analyzes them objectively. Anytime I'd wish to dispute something anyone else has written you can bet your wheels I will do it with hard core facts and not fluffed and blustered canned rhetoric I could have cut and pasted from the contestants in any cable tv news commentary debate.
In fact... your words remind me of a hilarious debate I had recently with people from the UK and Ireland explaining to ME, a veteran and US citizen what the 2nd amendment meant and how all of us Americans with gun permits are holding our own government hostage... They had no idea what they were talking and wholly unwilling to consider any other perspectives than their own, even a perspective of someone who might know what he's talking about.
I sincerely apologize if you felt that using the term "chicken little" was name calling. In all actuality, I was referencing a children's book.
I was not disputing attacks against clinics or any such violence in my original post. I was merely stating that your sources were flawed. In your response to my post you referred to radical groups. I argue that you could find similar radical groups among the LGBT community. The bottom line is, there are radical groups in every facet of human existence. That does not mean they represent the majority. You talk about the fundamental Christians banding together but this really isn't true. Until a few months ago I was a very active member of one of the fastest growing churches in the US and I watched as they scurried to fight gay marriage becoming legal in Hawaii. There is no hidden agenda, they are just afraid of their rights being negated in order to accommodate the LGBT community. Many of them actually equate the times in which we are living with writings from the Book of Revelation. Thus, they accept the changes in the world and seek to spread their message for the salvation of others, not the extermination of gays. Hate is spread by the radical minority, not the majority. On top of this, entire denominations are shifting their stance on homosexuality.
As for waves of violence following all social change in the US, I can think of one example that refutes your claim. Where was the massive violence, bombings, or rounding up of women to be executed after they were allowed to vote? That was certainly a pretty significant social change.
In sum, though much of the world is in shambles, it is not all doom and gloom in the US. Rather than obsess about possibilities in the future (world war III could destroy the planet but I don't hide under a rock as a result), revel in the success and advances of today. It will make each day brighter when looked at through the lens of optimism rather than being obscured through pessimism.
Sagittarius
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Capricorn
