Don't know how to figure this out

[rroepcke]

Hey,

I've been with this guy for about three months now - we dated for about two months and the past month have just classified it as 'more than friends' (he asked me if I wanted to be that, not the other way around) I really, really like him and think he is fantastic. He had me over at his house last night and when we got into bed I struck up conversation asking about where he thinks this is going (we are both not out) and what he actually wants as this is the first ever relationship I've been in.

He said he doesn't know but doesn't think he could ever be in a relationship that lasted - that he thinks if he tried to do something serious he'd just end up pushing me away. All I want is serious. I don't want to fool around, I don't want NSA and I don't want to play the field. I like him and to me it's as simple as that. I like him and if he likes me then why not try a serious relationship.

He brought up his two exes and how they just left him cold after a few months and how they still are in his head and how he still feels things for them. He also said he thinks it's something to do with wanting what he can't have - they left him cold and in his words 'You're standing right in front of me' though I didn't just offer it to him after we met- We didn't have sex or anything until after two months of dating/hanging out.

I also brought up the possibility of coming out, I think I'm ready and asked him how he feels about it. I really think he is so great and would love to introduce him to my family and friends. I don't see the point of hiding anymore and it makes me feel as though I'm doing something shameful by hiding it - which I'm not. He said that he is happy where we are now and that there could one day be a possibility of that happening (after a lot of questioning from me he said that anyway, it seriously felt like pulling teeth) but not any time soon.

I don't understand it - I think if you really like someone it shouldn't be complicated. Anyway, I guess what I need help/advice with is do you think I'm rushing things and that I should just take it easy? Or if he doesn't feel it now that he never will for me? (in regards to a relationship/coming out) as at the moment I'm feeling really sad and down and almost ready to end it as it's feeling like it might be going no-where and that it's more trouble than it's worth.

[MikeW]

One of the things I look for when I read relationship questions like this is how 'balanced' it is. I'm reading words from one guy, one half of the equation; how well does he represent not only his own thoughts and feelings but those of the other guy. You've done a fairly good job of it as these things often go. I get a picture with a few details that suggest you're both in slightly different places in your life and your feelings about coming out and being in a more "serious" relationship.

I'd like to suggest first that you don't use the word "serious"--because well, "serious" sounds so serious! I know what you mean, lol, but there are other words, like "committed" for example. Both those words can scare the pants off a lot of gus, though! Especially guys who have been burned in the past. At least "committed" offers some possibility of joy, fun, love, excitement, etc.

Another word is "intimate"--meaning more than just physical intimacy. Now we're talking about communication of all sorts, verbal, sexual, non-verbal; being open to one another, trying to understand one another, where each is coming form, making "room" in one another's lives for a shared life together. Now we're in the territory of a capital R Relationship, way more than a hook-up or a FWB.

All these things can be scary for a lot of guys for a variety of reasons. They imply "complications," not just staying on the surface, not just taking things lightly and easily, as they come. It is *very* important, even in intimate relationships, to stay open to all the fun stuff and not get too bogged down in the difficulties. The difficulties shouldn't be ignored but don't' let them become BFDs (big fucking deals) *if* they don't need to. Sometimes they need to, but not always.

At the moment your relationship is as it is. The question is, will it grow into something more? I think it can if you both just keep open to that possibility. No certainty, but it is possible. If it turns out that it can't grow into something more, that limit will probably show up sooner rather than later so a different decision can be made *when it is clear that the difference is irreconcilable*.

It also sounds like there is at least an "experience" difference between you two which may indicate some age difference too. Is he older than you are? You didn't say but it wouldn't be a surprise. In any case, he's been in relationships of some sort before and they've affected him and now, apparently, he feels unsure of himself. Apparently (I'm not really hearing his side of the story), he's been hurt and is fearful of getting hurt again. This is important information. He is 'wounded'.

So, what to do? How do we deal with differences in a relationship?

Obviously some differences are not all that important but others clearly are. What happens when one guy wants one thing and the other guy doesn't want it? It's an emotional imbalance, two guys not on the same page, one wanting to move in a particular direction, the other feeling resistant, preferring to either move in a different direction or not move at all, just keep things as they are.

This is fairly common in relationships and one of the reasons so many guys 'avoid' them by only staying at a certain level of relationship or commitment. Its more or less understood or assumed that FWBs are temporary, little or no 'emotional entanglement'. But relationships that are serious, committed, intimate--now there's something at stake. You want this but he doesn't or at least not yet.

I think it is impossible for someone who doesn't know you and your guy to really say, "well, what you need to do is x, y & / or z." It would just be a guess from this perspective with limited and one-sided understanding, it might be right or just as well be wrong. As I've said when replying to other guys, I take relationships seriously. I think they're very important, perhaps one of the most important things in life. And, having been in them, I know that often they're not 'easy'. Sometimes, yes. But usually they are as complicated as the two men involved.

The way I look at it, everyone has a right to his own feelings. You're feeling what you feel and that's legitimate--for you. But your guy is feeling what he is feeling and that is equally legitimate--for him. Life is a bowl of cherries when both guys are feeling the same way, no problem. But when one feels one thing and the other feels something different, ah, *now* what do we do!? It's a very interesting question I think.

How can I validate my feelings, let myself have them and feel ok about them and yet not judge or invalidate my partner's feelings--which may be the exact opposite of my own? Even the very idea that *both* could be right (not one right, the other wrong) may be a completely foreign concept to me! How is that even possible? (We all grow up in a society where right/wrong, good/bad situations and concepts are perpetually reinforced in our minds. The real world isn't anywhere near so black and white.)

This can get really tricky. For example, lets say you want something your guy doesn't want. You want it and this 'want' begins to make you do things to try and 'make' the other guy want it to. First you say what you want hoping he'll say, 'yeah, cool, I want that too'. But he doesn't say that, he says 'nah I don't want that' or 'I'm unsure about it' or 'well maybe I'll want that someday but not now' or what ever. What he says hasn't changed your want, you still want it but now you're meeting resistance.

How do *you* deal with resistance? Do you get angry? Do you get impatient? Do you think, 'I wonder if there is something wrong with me for even wanting this?' Do you think, 'What is wrong with him for not wanting what I do?' Do you get determined, pouty, demanding, insistent, manipulative, cajoling, confused, irritated, depressed--what goes on in you when you're desire (for anything, really) is met with resistance from the outside world? Knowing this about ourselves is a very helpful thing to know! So pay attention to this in yourself.

This is all very interesting to me because how we react to an 'obstacle' to our desire says a lot about us, about where we are in our own personal growth. There isn't necessarily a "right" way and a "wrong" way to get your desires met although, obviously, some ways are better than others.

But--and this is very important-- when we're in the arena of a relationship; it isn't just about what "I" want, it has to be about what "We" want. What do "We" want?

So, having laid all that out here's my suggestion:

Keep an open dialogue with your guy. Be clear about where you are, what you're feeling, what you want--and leave a big open space for hearing where he is, how he's feeling and what he wants. In situations like this there is no clear 'I'm right, he's wrong' (or the other way around); its more like 'We're both right to be where we are'. A big R Relationship has to validate both guys.

A difference can't be over-looked BUT at the same time as you're discussing this 'difference' one thing that is helpful is to look at the common ground, the areas of common agreement. If you loose sight of that, things get much more difficult. We all want a lot of things. So as you're having this more or less open dialogue find out what you both want as well as where there are areas of difference.

A Relationship is a situation where two guys are facing life together, not separately. They're there to not only give one another physical pleasure (excellent thing, btw) but to give one another support and, sometimes, to challenge the other in a supportive way.

Take the coming out issue, for example. You may be at slightly different places in your opinion about when and how but both know that at some point you're going to have to if for no other reason than lying about it is just so much work. So, can you go into it together, explore it together, find out what you agree on and disagree on and see if there is room for change, for support, for agreeing that it is possible to come out together when the time is right for *both*?

This is how Relationships work (IMO). There are *always* going to be differences. A good relationship respects these differences and works with them, sorting out which are fine the way they are (I like pea soup, you don't, no big deal); and which require sensitivity, understanding, insight, mutual validation, change, growth, planning together (I want to come out now, you don't, I can't come out without outing you, a big deal) etc. Its also true that some differences can be divisive, show the *limit* of a relationship. I can't make a 'R'elationship without *your* participation and consent.

I know, a lot of words here. tl;dr and all that. And there's no clear 'well you should do this and that' either. And that's because I don't know what you 'should' do… other than I think you should validate whatever you feel and validate your guy's feelings as well; both are 'right ways to feel' for each of you. Often acknowledging this in one's self helps us get out of the 'conflict zone' (I'm right, you're wrong, lets fight about it and see who wins!!! *evil grin*). Sometimes just staying sort of open, going with the flow of it a bit, staying with one's desire but not being demanding or confrontational or passive-agressive about it *allows* for change, allows for some new 'reconciling' energy to show up and gradually show both guys a path that works for them as a unit (as well as individually).

Finally, from what you've said, your guy is dealing with wounds that haven't totally healed. He's protecting himself (so far as I can tell). So if you care about him, ask yourself, what's your role in his healing process? You can't 'fix' him but, maybe (not sure), how you look at and handle all this can make a difference so you both begin to learn how to heal together.

[Jake]

Oh MikeW you're my new hero now... you did not save me of any kind but your wisdom does reach me LOL

[Virge]

you said something I found a bit funny --- "I think if you really like someone it shouldn't be complicated."

You're at that stage with this guy where everything "within the relationship" is complicated. Try to enjoy it if you can. If/When it moves on to the next stage the relationship becomes simple and the whole rest of the world becomes complicated. I remember what it was like playing the same role you're now playing.

In your words I see that you're already doing things I never did when I was in love with a guy who was doing his best to keep me at a distance as his #1 NSA. I NEVER started asking him where he saw "us" going or trying to explore or draw out his emotions for me. I played it
C--O--O--L I played it super confident but the whole time I was scared out of my wits. I knew he would respond negatively to any pressure I put on him for anything close to emotional commitments so I avoided saying and doing things that would make him feel "cornered."

This is just theory based on what I've seen so far --- but most people who say they don't want anything to dow with relationships are probably saying "I don't want to be hurt or hurt anyone," "getting deeply involved scares me" "I've been hurt before and don't trust people." or many other things.

If you stop pressuring him for relationship status reports and assessments, live for the minute and give him a chance he may come around to talking about the things that really prevent him from wanting a relationship. (my guy did) When that happens, don't make a big deal out of it. In fact don't ever bring it up after he tells you. Just go back to being your nice fun self and wait for him to make his next move. The main thing you need to do is be a predictable stablizing force that's not making any demands.

For my guy his next move was showing his first tinge of jealousy about other guys flirting with me. What did I do? Nothing obvious. I just left him all the room he wanted to act like I was his property.... and I pretended not to notice or even care. (but inside I was screaming like it was christmas!) The main thing was letting him move at his own pace and feeling totally in control as he did it.... It was the longest 7 months of my life before he just eased into feeling comfortable with the idea that I wasn't going to hurt him or mess up his life.

You'll have to come up with your own game plan but I've tried to give you some basic ideas. I hope I've helped.

EDIT.. Just read Mike's advice. TAKE IT!

[Borg69]

Sounds to me like he has commitment issues. He likes the excitement of the beginnings of a relationship and the chase, but the work and tediousness of day to day commitments and compromises are too boring and too much work. Some people can't get past the Disney princess fantasy of a relationship and into the hard work that actually goes into a relationship past just having awesome sex.

I'll also say that many guys are scared to commit. Fear of rejection/insecurities, and fear they might be missing out on something better by being "stuck" in a relationship. Guys really are their own worst enemies when it comes to relationships, sabotaging themselves (and then often blaming the other guy when it doesn't work out).

[MikeW]

I like what memechose said, too. We can make this all so complicated. He chose to play it cool and that worked for him. But that doesn't *always* work, either. The other guy might interpret the C O O L as indifference. I state my 'want' and *then* play it cool Trust. Every guy has to work out their stuff in their own way and if it doesn't work out the way I want, well, it wasn't meant to be.

[Virge]

I like what memechose said, too. We can make this all so complicated. He chose to play it cool and that worked for him. But that doesn't *always* work, either. The other guy might interpret the C O O L as indifference. I state my 'want' and *then* play it cool Trust. Every guy has to work out their stuff in their own way and if it doesn't work out the way I want, well, it wasn't meant to be.

I'm with you 1000000% MIke. I just have a problem putting things into words when it comes to things like this. And I don't like talking about the ugly stuff. I'll admit I tend to paint a rosey picture of the relationship I have now. But the first seven months of being totally in love with someone who was scared of love and being "tied down' made me honestly physically sick! LOL! And the whole time for his benefit I played it all COOL. I wanted to scream at him, grab him by the shoulders and beg him to stop doing what he was doing but.... it was the wrong thing to do if I wanted to get the big bag of cookies i was after.

By C O O L I did things like "stay the same and steady" no matter what happened, not indifferent at all. I showed him I was calm, collected, reliable and COOL. From my parents examples I learned that In any type of relationship there's only room for one person at the time to act screwy, mad or just hormonal. In those first months with my guy I did was think to myself, "how would dad handle this"" and handled things as he would have done. It wasn't easy taking everything into consideration because it was the biggest gamble of my life and I had no idea of what I'd do if everything went to shit. For seven months I was a complete basket case on the inside.

It was hard as hell having him turn to ME of all people to talk about other guys he was seeing who turned out to be jerks but I played it COOL. The only thing that I held onto during those episodes was the fact that he was finally opening up to me, trusting me and telling me once in awhile he trusted me more than anyone he knew.

In between his sexcapades that I had to listen to he would lecture me about how glad he was I'd gotten over my "crush" on him and and become his best friend. I used to hide my hands while we skyped so he wouldn't see them shaking. I played it COOL. Sometimes he would go into these gadawful pity parties about how he wished he deserved someone like me or could find someone like me. I wanted to scream out DUMMASS HERE I AM!!!!! but I played it COOL... I'd listen and tell him how sexy he looked when he wasn't afraid to be vulnerable and how much it meant to me that he trusted me enough to snow me that side of him. And I bet you I cried more in those days than any of you does in three years.

Then finally one day he came out and said, "I wish I could come spend time with you and get away from all this." I tried to get him to do it. I'd saved enough for about 3 roundtrips from the US to Australia but I didn't come out and say that. He said he couldn't, even if I paid the airfare. So I flew there without telling him to show up at his church on Easter Sunday. I think I threw up 20 times during the flight and up to getting to the church and seeing him... but i played it COOL.

After church he was all excited that I'd come until he saw I'd only brought one small bag. That's when I told him I had to fly back at 8:05pm his time and that I'd only come there because he needed me. He went totally beserk! I played it COOL and did my best to act like I didn't come there with any intentions of fucking his brains out. HAHAHAHHA! I almost missed my flight and he was still acting beserk when I left.

When I got home 36 hours later he'd spent HOURS on the phone with my mother and my room mate whom he met the 1st time he and I met. He was after them to convince me to give him a second chance IF I WOULD. He even gave them a date he'd come to visit me... IF I WANTED HIM TO COME VISIT.

I was totally exhausted from the flight, I'd been crying like a baby when I got him on skype but I played it COOL. I told him if he was sure he wanted to come visit it would make me happier than anything in the entire world. I played it COOL because he was on an emotional high and if I'd not played it COOL I felt he might defy gravity and end up in the stratosphere. He was coming to South Dakota to WIN ME BACK.... and.... (haha!) I let him but I made him work for it.

I'm telling you guys this and it's all just one side of the story! I PROMISE YOU if you ever meet me and my man and ask how we got together I'll find some excuse to leave the room. His version is a lot better than mine and of course in his version it was him chasing me! Now he does know that I was totally gaga over him from second one but anyone who ever repeats this whole thing to him will get his butt beat! LOL!!!!!!!!!

I don't give a shit who takes all the credit for us getting together. All I care about is that we ARE together and closer today than yesterday and will be closer tomorrow than today. I don't give a shit if he acts he's the one in charge or that I'm too dumb to figure out if I need to take a shit without using my finger to find out. I don't give a shit if he makes some of the shittiest food I've ever eaten. I don't give a shit if he picks out clothes for me on line and gets all giddy when I wear them. I'm not going to tell him I don't like them. (I'm a jeans/overalls/flannel shirt type of guy so anything he wants to do about my clothes is definitely an improvement according to everyone)

So... besides the fact that in the first year I lost from a studly 220 to lanky 185 from having no appetite and working my ass off to help pay for airfare every 3 months... and passing up a lot of possibly great and easy casual sex for over five years... and having a sassy runt tell me I need to remodel my house to make it look less like a frat pad........ I'm the happiest queer on earth....but it sure was a hard and bumpy road to get here!

I wish I had the brains to write it all down in a book I'd call, "How to catch a man and make him think it was all his idea."

[MikeW]

That is an awesome post, memechose! Funny, heartfelt, entertaining, and right-on. I especially like the lesson leaned from your parents, "there's only room for one person at the time to act screwy, mad or just hormonal." My last relationship went south because my partner went nutzo. Bonafide. Its a long story I couldn't possibly write as succinctly as you did yours. Lots of bat-shit crazy on both sides of the fence going round. In hind sight I can say he was nutzo (and its true, he was) but inadvertently played my part in that as well. After he unexpectedly disappeared (for a month) and was found in a psych ward (after having attempted suicide) we tried living together again for several months. Cool was just about all I had left in me by this point. The disappearance, having no idea what had happened to him (he was HIV+, I'm not, and his parting note said he was going somewhere to die), and using all my psychic energy to find him, had taken about everything else. Once he was back, though, even though we both gave it our best shot, it was clear this was an on-going problem and, worse, we were re-injuring each other. I helped get him on permanent disability and in a living situation set up specifically for people living with HIV. He passed away about 4 years ago but we hadn't been together for almost a decade.

Relationships are *AWESOME* things. Guys who think they're just going to be a bed of roses, though, may be in for a big surprise. Still, they are amazing and you're right to concentrate on the good stuff. I've outlived two partners and I don't regret the time lived with either of them, even the 'craycray'. There was never a dull moment between us! LOL!!

[Virge]

Thanks Mike. That means a lot. I wrote all that purely out of hopes someone someday will be able to learn something from it. I talk awful about my guy to other people (and even when he's close enough to hear) but you understand what that's all about. hahahaha! It would be boring as hell if I bragged on him all the time!

As far as the idea that there's only enough room for one "craycray" at a time... I've pretty much fallen into a comfy role as Mr COOL. That gives him all the damned space he wants to let it all out all the time. He's not really a runt but when he gets all wound up about something around friends or at a bar I do like picking him up under one arm and carrying him off to give him a time out of sorts. It always gives everyone something to laugh about... and I believe he even does it to provoke me times just to get attention.
Hey! Do you really think I give a shit? LOL.

My biggest sadness, and I mean this from deep deep inside, is that I know so many guys who are willing to sell their souls for great relationships. They don't like hearing what I have to say.... It's not like anything you read in romance novels or see in movies. It's not just work, it's hurdling tall buildings, leashing your ego, give give give and don't worry about the take take take... and my favorite phrase, "learning how to hunt bears with plastic forks from McDonalds"............ and learning to laugh about every damned silly drama that comes along that's not an immediate threat to life or limb.

Other than that relationships are all about sex, more sex, and deciding on a good excuse not to get up for a towel if someone else asks for one. Right?

LOL!

[MikeW]

…
Other than that relationships are all about sex, more sex, and deciding on a good excuse not to get up for a towel if someone else asks for one. Right?

LOL!