Having some doubts...

[princealbertofb]

It's funny how guys like them seem to fear the "relationship" or "commitment" words clinging to their independence and freedom until someone else comes along and shakes the integrity of whatever bonds they deny they have with each other turning them into the very clingy, cloying jealous things the claim they're not by avoiding the commitment.

I'm guessing your friend is feeling pretty good with two guys vying for his attention. He's in a no lose situation.

I guess if I were you I'd play it calm, cool, and aloof/disinterested and leave the ball in his court- but not like I'm waiting around for him to decide. I'd probably also be evil enough to flirt enough to piss off the other guy. I'm evil like that.

It could also be that they've been in relationships before that didn't turn out well, and that they're feeling "once bitten, twice shy". It happens.

[princealbertofb]

I realise my answer was quite close to Bowyn's, which answer is really very good. Well done, David.
How are you handling all this, Reaper? Are you feeling a little frustrated?

[reaper]

Hello Reaper,
I think we've all been following your no strings attached involvement with this man with interest, and also how you've handled it, or tried to handle it.
Relationships are difficult in various fields, be it friendships, work relationships, meeting strangers etc... it's not necessarily going to be easy. In the same way a love / sex / hook up relationship is going to be pulling at some strings, whatever one thinks. You create a dependency on things and people you like, no matter how you look at it. Otherwise it would be total indifference and you'd be a psychopath, which you are not.

I think it is possible that the other guy (the one you're interested in for what you have together) had not foreseen the extra attention from his other paramour. Indeed, he's probably enjoying it;, especially if it was never expected.

We are also emotional people and likely to go that extra mile for someone we feel particularly comfortable with. Your mate didn't necessarily plan to use you as an item to make his other friend jealous and more interested... You do appear as an easier candidate for something durable though, since you, contrary to him, are no longer engaged to anyone and are totally free to enter a relationship, should you wish to. This may cause some anxiety in the other man.

The other guy doesn't necessarily get that you are not looking for "a relationship".

You could try to find a man who really isn't attached to someone else, in any way, if that's what you're looking for... but it may get a little boring once it becomes just sex for sex's sake... I don't know, I've not been there. Just something I think may happen.

In any case, take care of yourself. You're new to all this, and you won't get it right every time, which is part of the thrill and adventure of starting a new life and finding new people to relate with.

Thanks.

That's my take on the evolving situation. I don't think I was ever being used in any way, but my interest fueled the extra attention in the other relationship....an unintended consequence, lol.

I will look for someone to date, not necessarily have a serious relationship with, but a bit more mainstream by comparison.

I started this journey taking the path less traveled!

[reaper]

I realise my answer was quite close to Bowyn's, which answer is really very good. Well done, David.
How are you handling all this, Reaper? Are you feeling a little frustrated?

MMM, I'm handling it well. I mean, I haven't actually lost or gained anything. Something I wanted my be slipping away from me. But I knew from the beginning that this was a somewhat complex situation.

I'm a bit frustrated, not because it won't happen, but because it was a yes, and still sort of is...yet I'm less certain of the outcome.

And even though it wasn't like I was being used or mislead, the way things unfolded I can't completely say that's not a possibility now.

Regardless, the guys my bondage buddy. That's why I went there in the first place, and whatever does or doesn't happen what change that.

It's fun, and I'm having fun. I wanted to hook up with him for fun...that's what it's about. If it's more hassle then fun, it's not a good idea.

I think I'll pull back a bit and let it play out how it plays out without my trying to move the pieces where I'd like them to be.

I've said enough and I've made the effort. He's not a shy dude, if he wants it to happen he'll say it.

I'll be fine either way!

[LEANDRONJ]

In your case you are the opposing force to another, and both of you are vying for the attention of one man.

That one man will come to love one of you and despise the other.

The reality is that the majority of 'open' relationships ends up going south because one of the partners gets trapped between 'two masters'. This usually happens when there is a repeat 'other guy'.

Like it or not, sex is not all about lust and pleasure. Sex has evolved in humans to meet many other goals, such as to strengthen the emotional bond between mating pairs so they will get along long enough to raise offspring. Yes happens to gay men as well. They are human too.

As such sex isn't going to happen in a vacuum if you have it with the same person over and over again. Attachment is going to happen, bonding is going to happen.

Seems to me these other two are bonding and heading down an interesting road together.

You do not want to be part of that journey.

Frankly I have no idea if you really understand your own motives and drives to want to hang around your fuck toy and develop a 'buddy' relationship. Questions you need to ask yourself are:

1. Other than what you claim, have you done a fearless inventory of your emotions when it comes to this guy?
2. Why are you so keen to hang out with him outside of the sex club - no really weigh that?
3. What will that achieve - are your sure?
4. Why are you already emotionally invested to care if this other guy is pulling this 'friend' closer to him?

To be bluntly truthful; you're too hot for your own good.

Yes you are going to be used as tool to meet the ends of other people's goals.

You are also going to be played - There are many who will say yes to friendship simply to insure they can play more with you. They will lie to your face, they will play (act) like they care about your conversation, they will say 'oh this is so nice....' when all they are really thinking about is your abs, chest and dick.

You are also at the disadvantage of being naive of how the gay world works. Gay's are the most treacherous bitches you will ever meet. If it is known that you are fresh to the scene, they will play with your heart, trick you, and treat you like the dumb child while playing all nice to your face. They will look at you as a conquest, not as a human being.

I'm sorry, but you will find that most of the gays that will talk to you are only interested in one thing - your body. I have long watched a group of gays go all crazy friendly for a shirtless muscly body. It is sicking and only underscores all of the well know shallow that is part of the scene.

If you want 'just sex' then make that perfectly clear and just do sex at the sex club. You tell dude you don't want to know his name, his relationship status and don't want to see him outside of the club. You are there to fuck and/or be fucked and you do not want to be their friend. If you want friends you have Facebook.

If you want something more than just sex, say friendship, then you best better start with the friendship side of things first. And for God's sake, keep your shirt on or the guy is going to act that he cares about friendship because he wants to have sex with you. Why? Becuse gay = shallow in 95% of the cases you will meet out in those clubs, bars and dungeons.

Lastly, none of these guys are your friends. They are your acquaintances at best. Better learn the difference now. And I doubt that any of them has any interest in your well being. Nothing I have heard from your tales tell me they are your friend. Especilaly this guy who is clearly embarrassed about his own life style that you have to come up with careful lies if you meet his 'friends'.

I wouldn't be at all surprised they think of you as a piece of meat, and if they talk about you when you are not there is about your body, your dick, your ass and how ignorance (naive) you are and how nice it was to pop your cherry.

Look, I didn't say any of that there to be mean. I'm saying it because I have been a gay man from hella back and have been around a lot of groups of gays and I know exactly how they operate.

I'm sorry, you are in a vulnerable position, one that you are rushing into because you are all excited by the myths of the sex of the gay scene (especially the BDSM scene) with none of the experiences necessary to safely traverse this territory.

What really stuns me is that other older members here haven't warned you about the various dangers.

Wow Bowyn Aerrow that was a tasty mouthful of great advice! my sentiments exactly! I tend to be very upfront in asking questions, and also seeing things and situations as they are! in other words I've learned not to be swayed by mine and others feelings or emotions, but to also take into consideration what is going on in my surroundings, and how its outcome affects the people involved. Having said that I try not to get involved with someone, or the very least get them out of the way if they become disruptive. All in all too much potential drama and invested emotional energy at the end it does not lead to anything but an emotional game of tug of war. Who wants that!?

[Virge]

This conversation has given me things to think about that fit into something else that's been on my mind. I'm not going to write a rambling page about it.... but in my brain as I think about all the people I know and the relationships I have with them it all boils down to simple algebra formulas. There are always a limited number of outcomes when any two people interact, get involved or try to form a relationship or friendship.

That old definition of insanity applies to all interactions being people. "Insanity is doing the same things with the same people expecting better results every time." You can flip that to make, "doing many different things with many different people will eventually produce at least one sane result that out of many that aren't."

Experimentation. Process of elimination. Scientific method. Trial and error. Call it whatever you want.

Get out there and meet people. The wider you throw the net the better the chances you'll find one that makes things seem sane.

[LEANDRONJ]

MMM, I'm handling it well. I mean, I haven't actually lost or gained anything. Something I wanted my be slipping away from me. But I knew from the beginning that this was a somewhat complex situation.

I'm a bit frustrated, not because it won't happen, but because it was a yes, and still sort of is...yet I'm less certain of the outcome.

And even though it wasn't like I was being used or mislead, the way things unfolded I can't completely say that's not a possibility now.

Regardless, the guys my bondage buddy. That's why I went there in the first place, and whatever does or doesn't happen what change that.

It's fun, and I'm having fun. I wanted to hook up with him for fun...that's what it's about. If it's more hassle then fun, it's not a good idea.

I think I'll pull back a bit and let it play out how it plays out without my trying to move the pieces where I'd like them to be.

I've said enough and I've made the effort. He's not a shy dude, if he wants it to happen he'll say it.

I'll be fine either way!

Just have fun in the exploration stage you are in! eventually that process will help you weed out the good from the bad! in the meantime just be careful and play safe!

[LEANDRONJ]

Couldn't agree more with Borg69 here, it's true that he's a good looking guy, and both of you can keep on having your BDSM fun, but honestly, he's not a good fit if you want to be more involved in a relationship terms with someone. As you mentioned, you're training is slightly over so you can go back into a normal life, then yes, go ahead and squat some of gay bar/club or whatever gay in your area. However, be ready though, you will meet a lot of very uncommitted guys who will often go for the physical part of you. You spoke with my dude, you know what he had gone through and well, you're pretty much in the same situation. Be alert!

A good point to consider! that kind of social scene one can't expect anything else but hookups from the majority of the crowd! unless of course if that is your intent!!

[reaper]

A good point to consider! that kind of social scene one can't expect anything else but hookups from the majority of the crowd! unless of course if that is your intent!!

Well, being all of this is so new to me, and I've really done nothing to date, I'm looking to have fun for a bit. I want to explore.

I don't mean meeting someone and doing things 5 minutes later, but I'll be open to things as long as I feel comfortable with the situation.

Last week a new guy came in to the club for the first time just to check it out. Honestly, this guy was unbelievably hot. I talked to him a bit and said goodbye to him when I had to go. He was kind of shy and had a kind demeanor, don't really know how to explain it. I just got a good vibe from him.

He will be back, maybe not tomorrow, but he'll be back. When he does I'll get his story. I would be willing to have a drink with him in a more typical setting. If he was down for it of course.

Obviously this is just a thought, but after I left and thought about this I knew expanding my horizon was the way to go.

8 more days and I will be able to have a more normal life...then I'll have to venture into new unknown territory.

If I can walk into a gay bondage/sex club while questioning my sexuality, I think I can handle walking into a gay bar as a gay man, lol.

[Alex]

Hi Reaper dude, lol, normally I stay away from relationship dilemma post because I've fixed mine years ago and I know very well that my situation isn't to compare with pretty much any of you guys here. I have been just fucking lucky to have found a dude that is not just about the way I look. But Bowyn Arrow has pretty much summed up everything that everyone have been saying here. I am certainly not older than he is, but I had my share of gay experience and because of the way I physically look, I have been in your situation numerous time.

I know for a fact that although you do claim to be interested just in playing, through your post it's obvious that you're also looking for something more stable, for someone who will introduce you to the gay world, but yet, not the bitchy one we all talk about. I believe Jake and many of us here have understood that in some way you were developing some sort of an emotional interest to your boy toy, even though you know knew that it was almost a kill from the very start since he's not ready for commitment, and well he's not completely out with his own feelings business either. That's boy is a red alert for possible heart breaking.

While you can keep going, to have fun with him and his little buddy there - which from what I understand here, he's going after people that are already engaged (straight over all) he's himself going for future emotional distress and you do not want to be there when his deck of card gets reshuffled, because you could be used as the spare tire. I would hate to learn that he has used you in this matter, and he will.

Open your horizon, but as my dude and BA said here, you're entering the snake pit and you need to learn to slither and use your venom when necessary. I have been in situation described by BA several times, where I kept on being very naive about guys being all nice to me so they could get that surfer natural blond that I am to suck them of or take them in my personal entrances.

It hurts a lot to be played that way and you my friend need to be alert and aware that you will be played too. Keep your shirt on, this is the first advice I can give you, I'm not as defined as you or my husband Jake, but I've learned to try not to show too much of myself so they can focus on other things than turning me into their future unofficial whore. You're too old to fall for mind games, be water my friend go with the flow, but know when to catch the next branch that will help you pull yourself out of the drama river.

Good luck ! Alex!