Having some doubts...

[MikeW]

I"m reacting a bit to your use of "hooking up" with this guy. I know you're using the term very loosely but it might help to clear it up. As Bowen said, hookups are more or less driven by animal desire and are over pretty much as soon as there is orgasmic release. They aren't about getting to know much of anything about the other guy.

What you're describing is very complicated. Difficult to keep up with all the players without a play bill and maybe a score card. Point being, you already have a relationship with these guys you've met at the club. Obviously they aren't anything like a capital 'R' relationship. They may even fall short of friendship -- just BSDM buddies or whatever you want to call them -- but the point is, you're already beyond 'hookup' territory with these guys whether you've (strictly speaking) had sex with them outside the club or not.

So, you've been open to the possibility of being more sexual in a different setting with this one guy. It's good just as it is. You've allowed yourself to have desires and to imagine this happening, of being sexual with a man in a way that feels safe for you. Apparently there is mutual interest but, as is obvious from the guy's relationshipS (capital R and otherwise), what this is about for him is different than what it's about for you. As you've said repeatedly, you're just exploring, finding out who you are, what feels right for you and not. What's in it for him? What's he getting out of it? (Not asking you to say, just pointing out how you're coming at it from different places.)

The very fact we're discussing all this at length puts this WAY outside the "hookup" territory. You're *already* dealing with relationships, rather complicated ones, TBH. Looks like you're handling it all pretty well, so far as I can tell, too. I have no idea what will happen next but whether you get more sexually intimate with this one guy or not, in a way he's already served his 'purpose' for you -- he's allowed you to feel things and entertain things you haven't before. Right? Enough so you're now thinking of going out in to the big bad world of gay bars and clubs. (Lions and Tigers and Bears, OH MY!)

I want to underscore something Bowen said, "Gay's are the most treacherous bitches you will ever meet. If it is known that you are fresh to the scene, they will play with your heart, trick you, and treat you like the dumb child while playing all nice to your face. They will look at you as a conquest, not as a human being."

I'm not *quite* that cynical or jaded; I would argue that the word SOME should have preceded the word "Gay's" in that sentence, since clearly we're not all alike. However, sadly, there is a lot of truth to Bowen's assertion. MEN in general -- especially the types that hang out in bars and clubs -- tend to be rather predatory around sex. It's a bit different than straight venues, however, as they're all competing with the very men they're trying to attract -- so it can get truly UGLY at times. (That's not to mention a whole host of other psychological screwiness that often comes with growing up gay; e.g., misdirected rage and self-loathing to name two.)

Where I'm at with you right now is wondering what is really going on inside you. Not that I think you've been dishonest with us, quite the contrary. But I wonder how honest you're being with yourself. What I'm about to say may be totally off the wall and out of left field but I'm going to put it out there for you to think about…

Do you *want* to be objectified as a sexual object? I ask this question mostly because you have an incredible body and your avatar suggests you enjoy showing it off. I don't blame you, if I had a body like yours I'd want to show it off too. It's amazingly beautiful and stimulating to look at. It's the kind of avatar I see a lot, for example, on RealJock.com -- total eye candy. LOVE IT… but I wonder what this is about *for you*? I wonder if you understand what it does to other gay men? Have you given any thought to this, what you want to stir in other men? I ask because if it is lust, you have a trump card that would be the envy of most gay men and it is apt to attract the very kind of attention Bowen is warning you about.

I'm just suggesting you give this some thought. It's totally fine if, for example, you want to be physically 'worshiped', sexually desired, related to as a sexual object. This might even be a phase of your own self-exploration. But since you keep pointing out how new you are to all this, I believe it might be worth giving some consideration to this question. Can you own your own sex appeal, feel comfortable using it to get what YOU want?

There's more on my mind, too, but I'll leave it at this for now.

[LJay]

Well guys I am flat out impressed. First, with Reaper, who has an amazing knack for self analysis and even more of a knack for writing about it. Second, for all of the thoughtful advice above. The whole Reaper saga and its replies would make a very good study for a psychology of sex paper. Reaper, maybe you should be doing an advanced degree with this.

One thing that keeps coming to mind as I read this, Reaper, is that you are a great thinker, but that you must be careful not to over think and avoid dealing with the heavy emotions that come with all of this gay stuff. It is difficult and I really think that you are prepared for it, but please be aware that if you try some gay bars, things may well move a great deal faster. Those places are heavily lubricated with hormones and alcohol, to say nothing of manipulative old timers. Arm your synapses, good man, but also be prepared to deal with warp speed emotions.

And for goodness sake, carry condoms.

[princealbertofb]

This conversation has given me things to think about that fit into something else that's been on my mind. I'm not going to write a rambling page about it.... but in my brain as I think about all the people I know and the relationships I have with them it all boils down to simple algebra formulas. There are always a limited number of outcomes when any two people interact, get involved or try to form a relationship or friendship.

That old definition of insanity applies to all interactions being people. "Insanity is doing the same things with the same people expecting better results every time." You can flip that to make, "doing many different things with many different people will eventually produce at least one sane result that out of many that aren't."

Experimentation. Process of elimination. Scientific method. Trial and error. Call it whatever you want.

Get out there and meet people. The wider you throw the net the better the chances you'll find one that makes things seem sane.

So right, Virge. Nice when you finally cast that net and it brings up the right fish... (or GHOTI, as George Bernard Shaw would have it).
But I was thinking it's harsh on people who aren't in settings that allow much interaction with many people. You know, once you're out of school and no longer go to church, the pool can be pretty small.

[reaper]

I"m reacting a bit to your use of "hooking up" with this guy. I know you're using the term very loosely but it might help to clear it up. As Bowen said, hookups are more or less driven by animal desire and are over pretty much as soon as there is orgasmic release. They aren't about getting to know much of anything about the other guy.

What you're describing is very complicated. Difficult to keep up with all the players without a play bill and maybe a score card. Point being, you already have a relationship with these guys you've met at the club. Obviously they aren't anything like a capital 'R' relationship. They may even fall short of friendship -- just BSDM buddies or whatever you want to call them -- but the point is, you're already beyond 'hookup' territory with these guys whether you've (strictly speaking) had sex with them outside the club or not.

So, you've been open to the possibility of being more sexual in a different setting with this one guy. It's good just as it is. You've allowed yourself to have desires and to imagine this happening, of being sexual with a man in a way that feels safe for you. Apparently there is mutual interest but, as is obvious from the guy's relationshipS (capital R and otherwise), what this is about for him is different than what it's about for you. As you've said repeatedly, you're just exploring, finding out who you are, what feels right for you and not. What's in it for him? What's he getting out of it? (Not asking you to say, just pointing out how you're coming at it from different places.)

The very fact we're discussing all this at length puts this WAY outside the "hookup" territory. You're *already* dealing with relationships, rather complicated ones, TBH. Looks like you're handling it all pretty well, so far as I can tell, too. I have no idea what will happen next but whether you get more sexually intimate with this one guy or not, in a way he's already served his 'purpose' for you -- he's allowed you to feel things and entertain things you haven't before. Right? Enough so you're now thinking of going out in to the big bad world of gay bars and clubs. (Lions and Tigers and Bears, OH MY!)

I want to underscore something Bowen said, "Gay's are the most treacherous bitches you will ever meet. If it is known that you are fresh to the scene, they will play with your heart, trick you, and treat you like the dumb child while playing all nice to your face. They will look at you as a conquest, not as a human being."

I'm not *quite* that cynical or jaded; I would argue that the word SOME should have preceded the word "Gay's" in that sentence, since clearly we're not all alike. However, sadly, there is a lot of truth to Bowen's assertion. MEN in general -- especially the types that hang out in bars and clubs -- tend to be rather predatory around sex. It's a bit different than straight venues, however, as they're all competing with the very men they're trying to attract -- so it can get truly UGLY at times. (That's not to mention a whole host of other psychological screwiness that often comes with growing up gay; e.g., misdirected rage and self-loathing to name two.)

Where I'm at with you right now is wondering what is really going on inside you. Not that I think you've been dishonest with us, quite the contrary. But I wonder how honest you're being with yourself. What I'm about to say may be totally off the wall and out of left field but I'm going to put it out there for you to think about…

Do you *want* to be objectified as a sexual object? I ask this question mostly because you have an incredible body and your avatar suggests you enjoy showing it off. I don't blame you, if I had a body like yours I'd want to show it off too. It's amazingly beautiful and stimulating to look at. It's the kind of avatar I see a lot, for example, on RealJock.com -- total eye candy. LOVE IT… but I wonder what this is about *for you*? I wonder if you understand what it does to other gay men? Have you given any thought to this, what you want to stir in other men? I ask because if it is lust, you have a trump card that would be the envy of most gay men and it is apt to attract the very kind of attention Bowen is warning you about.

I'm just suggesting you give this some thought. It's totally fine if, for example, you want to be physically 'worshiped', sexually desired, related to as a sexual object. This might even be a phase of your own self-exploration. But since you keep pointing out how new you are to all this, I believe it might be worth giving some consideration to this question. Can you own your own sex appeal, feel comfortable using it to get what YOU want?

There's more on my mind, too, but I'll leave it at this for now.

First, I want to say how much I enjoy all your responses. They are always deep and insightful.

I'll just touch on some of the things you mentioned.

A few guys have said keep your shirt on, well at this club this is never the case. I usually have on pants and sneakers. During scenes, less.

I do use the term hook up in a lose way. I'm aware of my feelings and don't deny them. I do like this guy, I'm not in love with him or anything that extreme, but we do have a connection and I'm attracted to him on a physical level as well.

I'm not really looking for any serious relationship, but I'm also not simply looking to meet somone and not know their name and do things sexually just for the sake of doing them. That's way more casual then I'm thinking.

If that were my goal I could have done this several times already, which I always reject.


I know their is no relationship possibility with this guy in the traditional sense. It's more like we're friends, or 2 people becoming friends, that may end up adding a sexual element to our casual relationship.

The fact that I've gotten to know and like him has led me down the current path. It's casual and light, but it's also more than a random spontaneous hook up.

Although I think the prospect of this happening is not as high as I previously thought.

I can't say that I just want to be seen as a sex object, but I can't say that I wouldn't use my appearance to my advantage as well. Sexual attraction after all, is usually the initial dirve in the whole process.

On account of my age, and only recently embracing my sexuality, I spent most of my adult life deprived sexually. I didn't think I was gay, but I knew I didn't connect with women and eventually didn't bother to try.

I'm not young, but I still have enough youthfullness left to go out and have some fun. On account of me not having done much, or knowing much, it's a new journey for me. I'll make mistakes of course, but I'll learn as I go. I have good instincts and a good ability to read people. I'll let this guide me.

I would like to find someone to date, and all of that, but I also want to have my life free of serious commitment...at least for now.

Going to this club was a pretty bold step. And it's all worked out pretty well. I've met some cool people, I've gotten to embrace my kink, I had my first man kiss....

I knew nothing going into what some people would consider a seedy place and did pretty well. I kept my eyes open and listened to my gut and have had a lot of fun.

This guy did already serve a positive purpose in my life. I didn't know exactly what to expect going to this club. I never thought I'd continue to go back every week but I have. I didn't think I'd be so comfortable, but I am. I didn't expect to meet a guy and want to be sexual with him, but I have.

And now, when things may not be going in the direction I want, I see it. I haven't let the fantasy of the place distort the reality of the situation.

I don't know how things will play out, and I don't really need to. As long as I'm aware of what is or isn't happening I'll be good.

If the guy wants to have more then the club, then that's good. If it's not the case, that's fine too!

The club was never intended to be a place for me to meet someone or have sex in. It's already served its purpose and helped me much more than I thought it would.

I have a lot of fun, get to embrace my kink, and hang with a few guys that are really pretty cool and have been helpful to me on this journey.

It doesn't need to be any more than that.

[princealbertofb]

I"m reacting a bit to your use of "hooking up" with this guy. I know you're using the term very loosely but it might help to clear it up. ...
....
Do you *want* to be objectified as a sexual object? I ask this question mostly because you have an incredible body and your avatar suggests you enjoy showing it off. I don't blame you, if I had a body like yours I'd want to show it off too. It's amazingly beautiful and stimulating to look at. It's the kind of avatar I see a lot, for example, on RealJock.com -- total eye candy. LOVE IT… but I wonder what this is about *for you*? I wonder if you understand what it does to other gay men? Have you given any thought to this, what you want to stir in other men? I ask because if it is lust, you have a trump card that would be the envy of most gay men and it is apt to attract the very kind of attention Bowen is warning you about.

I'm just suggesting you give this some thought. It's totally fine if, for example, you want to be physically 'worshiped', sexually desired, related to as a sexual object. This might even be a phase of your own self-exploration. But since you keep pointing out how new you are to all this, I believe it might be worth giving some consideration to this question. Can you own your own sex appeal, feel comfortable using it to get what YOU want?

There's more on my mind, too, but I'll leave it at this for now.

Such good thinking and suggesting, Mike; Thanks for this input.

[princealbertofb]

I guess, Reaper, you did all the research that you would have done in adolescence, had you realised this was what you were interested in then.... As it happened society brainwashed you well enough. Mike and Bowen are right in trying to put you on guard for your emotions, because it could lead to depression at some point (not that it necessarily will) when you encounter the kind of difficulties you were anticipating. Think that the difficulties that you were anticipating with your fiancée would probably be similar, except that in this case, you'd feel so much more comfortable in your body and mind if it were a relationship with a man. As I mentioned before, you'll find yourself becoming more and more atuned to your own issues as a gay man.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

[reaper]

Well guys I am flat out impressed. First, with Reaper, who has an amazing knack for self analysis and even more of a knack for writing about it. Second, for all of the thoughtful advice above. The whole Reaper saga and its replies would make a very good study for a psychology of sex paper. Reaper, maybe you should be doing an advanced degree with this.

One thing that keeps coming to mind as I read this, Reaper, is that you are a great thinker, but that you must be careful not to over think and avoid dealing with the heavy emotions that come with all of this gay stuff. It is difficult and I really think that you are prepared for it, but please be aware that if you try some gay bars, things may well move a great deal faster. Those places are heavily lubricated with hormones and alcohol, to say nothing of manipulative old timers. Arm your synapses, good man, but also be prepared to deal with warp speed emotions.

And for goodness sake, carry condoms.

Thanks man, and it's funny, the dude at the heart of all this saga, studies psychology...which is kind of ironic.

My buddy also warned me about the gay bar scene, again ironic being that our association exists in a bondage sex club, lol.

I'll be on guard when I move forward. After all, I'm still a a trained Marine, lol. The fact that I have to go it all alone kind of sucks, but that's the reality of the situation.

And I am a thinker, sometimes I think to much, but with all of this so far that really hasn't been the case.

I know it seems that way in here, but this is the place for me to honestly lay it all out on the table. The more honest I am about everything the better the feedback.

I don't live in a gay community, I don't have gay frinds, and the few people who know I'm gay I can only tell so much to. Wanting to have a sexual relationship with a young guy from a bondage club who's also having sex with antoher guy in the place that I'm friendly with is not a stroy for mom or my aunt. lol. (dropping the gay bomb on them was one thing, but the sorted details...that's more like Hiroshima)

Outside of this forum, my stroy is my own.

[princealbertofb]

Reaper, you're a wonderful guy. Thanks for sparing your mum and your aunties. You wouldn't want THEM to be telling YOU about their sex lives, though, so you're keeping it where it should be.
Feel free to spill the beans here with us, since we at least know a little bit about your history and your story. We're fine, and find it entrancing and captivating, to say the least.
On the other hand, I'm sure Mom will want to know when you're actually dating someone officially and seriously. Hopefully it'll be someone she'll learn to accept, love and respect.

Have you got siblings, Reaper?

[princealbertofb]

By the way, are you naturally lean? Or is it all hard work?

[reaper]

Reaper, you're a wonderful guy. Thanks for sparing your mum and your aunties. You wouldn't want THEM to be telling YOU about their sex lives, though, so you're keeping it where it should be.
Feel free to spill the beans here with us, since we at least know a little bit about your history and your story. We're fine, and find it entrancing and captivating, to say the least.
On the other hand, I'm sure Mom will want to know when you're actually dating someone officially and seriously. Hopefully it'll be someone she'll learn to accept, love and respect.

Have you got siblings, Reaper?

By the way, are you naturally lean? Or is it all hard work?

Thanks man, my mom would accept whoever I brought around. I told her, my aunt (whos my age and really more like a sister), and my brother who is 4 years my junior.

I am naturally lean in a sense, but not naturally muscled. Sadly, it is a lot of hard work but I do enjoy it. I look better at 40 then I did at 20. Well, my body at least. You can see the wisodom in my face, lol.