Gay issues (big post)

[yousir]

Hey guys. New here and need some guidance/thoughts/alternative view points. It could end up a bit lengthy so I will try to make it spacious and easy on the eye. Nobody likes a wall of text. I will also try to make it easy to understand by highlighting particular problems in bold, making paragraphs brief-ish, and bullet-pointing. Hopefully that helps. I really need some guidance as my head is in a mess. Thanks in advance for your time.

For the generally summary and questions I would like answers to, please skip to the final "section". Thanks again.

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So I am finding myself having a mass of interconnected and confusing issues around dating / relationships / sex.

1 > I have never had a long term relationship. My love life is a mess/joke. Right from the start it has been a case of guys messing me about, in many instances by leaving me hanging and not being honest in communicating what I need to know.
So I think I have become addicted to "the chase". "The chase" being where, in my head, I "chase" the guy if it seems he may not be interested:

"Chasing" meaning I will be eager to get reassurance that they still like me. In the past I used to make that really obvious by basically being clingy. Over the years I have learnt to keep it to myself. But that nasty stomach churning feeling is still there and it is exhausting. "Why are they not texting me?". "Is he finding reasons not to meet up with me?". I know these are irrational thoughts and unrealistic.

And I am not perfect. On a couple of occasions I have done similar to guys in the past. Leaving them hanging before letting them know I am not interested anymore. Simply because I did not have the guts to tell them at first. And for that I am a dick. Though I would never arrange to meet someone and just not show up.

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2 > Further on the above point. Especially, from the last paragraph above you can probably see that my "love life" has always been one way: they like me OR I like them. Never: "we both like each other." The interest is there both ways in the early beginning, but then on one side it wanes quickly.

So I "chase" the guys when it seems they are not interested. But for the guys who text and call TOO much, showing they are interested, I get bored quickly.

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3 > Of the guys I have met, most connections started online. So dating sites.

Then in recent years I joined the apps. Grindr. Scruff. It has boosted my ego to get attention and now THAT is what I am chasing. Attention. And I hate that it has become this. It is not even attention that I really want because I does not mean anything.

To begin with I'd get attention say 50-70% of the time. Now it has dropped to 20%. And as is probably the case for most people (unless I really am as ugly/undesirable as I am feeling) this attention does not even actually go anywhere beyond stupid messages on your phone.

Of the FEW times I have actually met anyone from these apps OFFLINE, it has been average-to-underwhelming and I find myself wishing I had not bothered. And I have only met one guy for anything kind of vaguely "regular". Most are unrealiable, flakey, even those who are full of amazing ideas of friendship, they fail to follow through and again I am left hanging.

I do not want to be on these apps. And I am so much happier/calmer/balanced when I am not on them. Yet sometimes, I think "I am missing out". So I go back on them. Especially when it comes to my fetishes.

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4 > So I have fetishes. Tickling, and feet. I go back on the apps in the hope I may be able to fulfill them. Never happens.

I am on Recon and have met people off there for it. And again it has been average-to-underwhelming. Although slightly better than with people off the apps.

I do find most guys are not interested. On datings sites. On apps. And I know, logically, that is normal and realistic. Out of everyone in the world, most people wont be interested in you.
But since I have been caring more about what guys think and wanting attention, I tend to get outright ignored most of the time. I don't think I am ugly. I think I am reasonably good looking.

I have nice qualities in my personality. Which guys would find out if they bothered to make the effort in just being friends but for the most part I find most gay guys are not interested in even that. Even the guys that purport on Grindr that are looking for friends, most flat out ignore my messages.

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5 > I have found throughout my life that I do not fit in with most people. In school, I did not even fit in with the "we don't fit in crowd". I always found myself on the outside looking in. Now, for the most part, I embrace that. I get on better with autistic people. I struggle with most typical people. I like the complex subjects that I like that most just don't. And for gays it's often the gym, fashion, loud bars, jobs and money, self indulgence, and often as I have found, arrogance and rudeness.

I realise I just do not get on with most people. And that is actually, in fact and truth, fine with me. I don't want to. I look at most people and I do not want to involved. I prefer to keep myself to the select few types I do get on with. Which is probably normal and true of most people anyway.

And I feel the same about gay guys. Most of them I probably do not want to be involved with. I know that logically in my head. And yet some other part of brain convinces me that:

- I want gay friends. I look around at groups of gay guys having laughs and I think "I want that".
- I want some (sex-)fun, especially my fetishes. The more sex I have had the more horny I get. I am so horny most of the time now it is getting distracting, and YET whether I meet someone or not it is unsatisfying. I want it yet I do not. Yet the horniness convinces me I do. THAT is making me miserable.
- I want a relationship. When I am home alone, with too much time on my hands, as is the case lately, thinking too much, or when in bed, I would like to have someone to kiss and cuddle.

And in fact, the only time sex/my fetishes have ever been out of this world enjoyable is when I am with a guy I feel a connection with.

And yet, when I am busy, like when I was working full time, or when I am out and about with my head occupied, I do not think nor care about sex or relationships.

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*FINAL SECTION*

I realise there is a lot here, and I do not think I have even put everything in. But my main problem now is that I have two strong conflicting parts of my brain.

One telling me I do want sex and gay friends. Yet there is no reason or justification for it.
One telling me I really do NOT want these things because I have good reason not to: constant dissatisfaction.

- How can I stop being so horny? I know this may seem funny but it is actually making me miserable. I wish I could go back to the time when I had no sex drive.
- Why can I not be like the guy on Grindr who says "If you're not interested, block me. I wont take it personally"?
- Why does it make me feel a little crap to think "that guy does not like me"? I don't REALLY give a fuck...so why do I give a fuck?
- Why do I keep going back on these apps, knowing I get nowhere and I do not even WANT what they offer, and it just makes me miserable?
- Should I come off these apps and dating / fetish sites completely? They evidently bring me nothing.

- Why do guys start off all enthusiastic - be it for friendship or more - and then just stop bothering?
- Am I ever gonna find anyone? Or is it really just a case of - "I just have not found the right person yet. He will come."

When I am happy and don't care about what attention I get, when I am just focused on enjoying my life, I get attention. Sometimes a LOT. One night in a club I pulled three guys. Totally unlike me. Once, in Feet On Friday (foot fetish night) I got to play with 3 guys feet. Other times I get nothing, and usually these are the times when I want "it".

FFS. My head is in a mess. Unless I wank and then I can move on to the rest of my life. But I better be quick to find something to occupy myself, before I get lonely/horny again 5 mins later. What the hell is wrong with me.

[ffffffff1000000]

You just need to find the right people.

[Borg69]

You're passive aggressive over apps. Apps are your problem. Meet REAL people and get away from the psycho subculture of guys looking for one night stands on apps.

[MikeW]

…My head is in a mess….

IT IS! OMFG!!! I mean, damn, your head is even more messed up than mine! At least I'm fine with being a horny old goat and NOT trying to do anything about it IRL… for many of the same reasons you're on about!

So the first thing you have to accept about yourself is that at least at this juncture in your life you're very ambivalent about a lot of things. You're dissatisfied with sex for sex's sake (although you'd still go there some of the time, who wouldn't?) but, I'll be damned, as soon as someone shows any interest in me, I'm like, "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU, ANYWAY?"



I suspect underneath all that angsty ambivalence, bordering on cynicism, is a very frightened and hurt individual who just doesn't know what to do anymore.

But I could be wrong.

Welcome to the forum! Hope you stick around!

[JimmyEcho]

Did not read your book

[yousir]

You just need to find the right people.

Thank you

You're passive aggressive over apps. Apps are your problem. Meet REAL people and get away from the psycho subculture of guys looking for one night stands on apps.

Um not sure i relate to being passive aggressive. Can you elaborate please?
I agree with the rest of your post very reaffirming thank you

IT IS! OMFG!!! I mean, damn, your head is even more messed up than mine! At least I'm fine with being a horny old goat and NOT trying to do anything about it IRL… for many of the same reasons you're on about!

Ha ha!

I suspect underneath all that angsty ambivalence, bordering on cynicism, is a very frightened and hurt individual who just doesn't know what to do anymore.

But I could be wrong.

Welcome to the forum! Hope you stick around!

You're possibly very right there. I've been thinking about what you said and I've seen the truth. I have absolutely zero faith or trust in guys and am ready for them to do me wrong or at least am already subconsciously doubting anyone would like me enough to even be friends with me. I really relate to what you've said. Thank you.

I am hurt. And scared.

Thank you so much to you all who put the time and effort into reading and thinking and responding. I knew my post would be long but I didn't realise THAT long.

[MikeW]

… I have absolutely zero faith or trust in guys and am ready for them to do me wrong or at least am already subconsciously doubting anyone would like me enough to even be friends with me. I really relate to what you've said. Thank you.

I am hurt. And scared. ...

Okay, so, now what?

The way I look at it is first thing I have to do is accept myself as I am. The problem is, we don't see ourselves objectively. Quite the contrary… We have all kinds of 'wrong ideas' about ourselves (both good and bad, negative and positive). Along with those 'wrong ideas' about ourselves, we have wrong ideas about everyone else (or, as in this instance, 'gay men' in general), too.

At the moment you wrote the words above you were in a particular part of yourself that *sees* that you are hurt and frightened and that this hurt and fear subconsciously colors your interactions with other men. At that moment you felt it, saw it.

But you're not always in that state. You also get horny (another state) and begin looking for someone to satisfy that need either online or IRL at a club or bar. Perhaps you find someone and are able to satisfy your desire, lust, fetishes etc. But once that's over, this other state, your deeper needs (the hurt and fear) resurface. Those needs didn't even get acknowledged, let alone addressed. So in a way you end up feeling less satisfied than you did before and, worse, your hurt, fear and distrust are exacerbated, reinforced, because they were never even *seen* by the other guy, much less accepted.

What I'm suggesting here is that it may be helpful to accept that *all* the various states that I occupy over a period of time are *parts* of me. They're all valid and I can learn something about the whole of myself by looking at each of them. They're all real aspects of who I am. (That's not to say that they are immutable and can't change but lets not get ahead of ourselves.)

I need to accept that *some* of these aspects are contradictory. One wants/needs one thing, another wants/needs the exact opposite. One part wants/needs sexual gratification, another wants/needs emotional connection, being seen and accepted by another.

Taking that last example, can we begin to understand how they are separate and yet related needs? We really have to think about this, think it through, observe how we muddle them up in ourselves over and over again. It's like having two related itches; I can scratch the one on the surface but the deeper 'itch', I can't quite get to it. So even if I scratch the itch on the surface, although that is satisfying in the moment, I still itch. It's confusing because I'm trying to get at the deeper one through scratching the more superficial one.

Does that make sense as an analogy?

The ideal picture we have in our heads is that both of these itches can get scratched at the same time. However the reality is way more complicated than we expect. It's like we expect "prince charming" to just show up on a white horse, immediately see us, all of our deep-seated wants/needs, embrace them all, including our sexuality -- and we end up living happily ever after.

When put that way it is fairly easy to see why this flat, one-dimensional cartoon version of reality just isn't, well, REAL. It's an ideal, a fantasy… and since everyone is relating to the world through this kind of fantasy (more or less, one way and another), everyone ends up feeling betrayed, disappointed, hurt, angry, suspicious, fearful -- and so on. The fantasy only gets acted out in bits and peaces -- the real, underlying 'itch' -- the need for deep connection, understanding, love -- that never gets scratched. Or, perhaps it does a bit but then something happens and what we thought we had with someone seems to turn to dust -- leaving us even more bereft than before.

So, what's going on here?

The way I see it is human beings are extremely complex, dynamic (always moving) fields of mental, emotional and physical energy. But it isn't enough to read words like this or even superficially agree with them. What's necessary is to actually *see* -- observe -- these on-gong fluctuations of energy inside one's self.

To do that, I have to be willing to look at myself (all the various aspects of myself) and accept them. This is difficult because one part of myself is always judging or tying to 'fix' another part -- and this usually doesn't work, let alone work well. So we end up very "messed up in the head," full of inner knots and contradictions, and wondering why other people find it so difficult to relate to us. The truth being we have a difficult time relating to ourselves, to our contradictory parts, and are (rightly) distrustful of other people relating to them any better than we do.

How do we untangle this?

My view is that the more we accept ourselves as we are, the more these knots and tangles loosen of their own accord. It's more a matter of seeing and accepting than 'doing' anything. It's as if as I see myself more clearly and accept myself for all the "mess" that I am, I become less of a mess. Something emerges, a new POV within myself that isn't opposed, isn't a reaction. The more I can see and accept my own contradictions, the better able I am to see and accept the contradictions within others, too. I no longer expect "prince charming" to be *perfect* -- or any less hurt, damaged and afraid than I am. On the contrary… seeing that he is like me in a lot of ways… and he seeing that I am like him in a lot of ways… both of us accepting ourselves… we're more able to accept the other and work from there.

As soon as we fall back into our one-dimensional way of thinking and feeling, of course, things get difficult -- we forget, we get annoyed or pissed off because the other isn't being the 'ideal' the 'prefect prince charming' -- and then one reaction sets off a reciprocal reaction and off we go on our not-so-merry-go-rounds. It's only when we stop, when we stop looking to THE OTHER HUMAN BEING to complete us, to *make* us happy, to resolve our own inner contradictions, to give our lives meaning and purpose -- on and on and on -- it's ONLY when we see and accept that it is up to us to find that "sweet spot" of acceptance *within ourselves* that we CAN begin to find acceptance for anyone else.

[yousir]

You're so right. It's all so true and it's frustrating because everything you've said is everything i know and believe to be true.

I need to sort me out first. And love myself as i am. Which i do, for the most part. And I've already had it proven to me, through experience, that when I'm at ease and happy and chilled and not too caught up in stuff and not too bothered about stuff, stuff works out....

I get lost in bits of myself and forget to see the whole of me.

Thank you

[MikeW]

...I get lost in bits of myself and forget to see the whole of me.

Thank you

You're welcome… and, yes, apparently this is the human condition. We identify with "parts" of ourselves and mistake them for the whole. We don't see ourselves, not really.

The amazing thing is, though, if we just give ourselves some 'space' -- calm down a bit, stop reacting to everything that happens both in and around us -- and just watch, perhaps with a bit more equanimity, acceptance, forgiveness and such, toward ourselves and others, a new perception begins to emerge. It's a new identity, one a bit more free from the clutches of our ordinary fragmented state.

It takes time and a kind of willingness to endure the frustrations without becoming completely jaded or cynical (either about ourselves or others or life in general). Love is a possibility. In a way, I'd like to say it is an *actuality* -- possibly the ONLY "actuality" -- but that's a bit metaphysical so I'll back off. Lets just stay with what we KNOW to be true… we are fragmented and somewhere within we long for wholeness.

It is not a vain hope. It is a potential, a real possibility. And it need not be an 'all or nothing' kind of thing. It can be a 'better' and 'worse' kind of thing, yes?

[yousir]

Yes i know it's a possibility. At least.

I do aim to speak less and listen more. Act less and watch more.

Self acceptance is such a tough thing. But i know it can only be achieved by looking inwards. Fortunately im good at honest self reflection. I just sometimes forget to do it when I'm faced with other people being tits.