Indiana Doesn't Want Me

[Watermark]

Those hate bills keep popping up like mushrooms after rain Whats going on?!

[East]

Those hate bills keep popping up like mushrooms after rain Whats going on?!

Gerrymandering has created a mess in many states..it is at the core of the problem....but an entirely different subject...

With the gerrymandering comes politicians who do not TRULY represent their constituents...and when these backlashes happen...they are often shocked as they live in an insulated world and believe their own lies after awhile.

These bills are exclusively Republican so far...there might be an exception but I am not aware of any.

[MikeW]

I don't disagree with you, [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]… I grew up in Indiana and I left, decades ago, for a reason.

So far as "feel(ing) personally responsible on some level for everything my state and the country does in my name" -- yeah, I had that problem. But there comes a point -- like when you realize that 9/11, for example, was perpetrated from within the banking/corporate/military/industrial complex for the sole purpose of instigating a palace-coup, passing the ignoble "patriot" legislation on "national security" grounds and permitting resource wars (wars that have not only maimed and killed untold hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people abroad, but equally tens of thousands of US citizens within our own military) -- there comes a point where one cannot take on that "responsibility" any longer.

I realize most people don't see what I see, don't understand the nature of the deep-political system and the confluence of international fractional reserve banking, capitalist-class corporate culture and the military industrial/security-state that I see. But for me what is going on in Indiana is just one small piece of the on-going neo-fascist global agenda. I do NOT identify with any of this as representing my ethics or my interests. As far as I'm concerned, these, and the institutions that shield them, ARE the enemy, and I'm not a citizen, but a subject living under their increasingly tyrannical rule.

For sure they are to be opposed, but I advise not accepting the illusion that they REPRESENT you or your interests in any way.

[East]

I don't disagree with you, [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]… I grew up in Indiana and I left, decades ago, for a reason.

So far as "feel(ing) personally responsible on some level for everything my state and the country does in my name" -- yeah, I had that problem. But there comes a point -- like when you realize that 9/11, for example, was perpetrated from within the banking/corporate/military/industrial complex for the sole purpose of instigating a palace-coup, passing the ignoble "patriot" legislation on "national security" grounds and permitting resource wars (wars that have not only maimed and killed untold hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people abroad, but equally tens of thousands of US citizens within our own military) -- there comes a point where one cannot take on that "responsibility" any longer.

I realize most people don't see what I see, don't understand the nature of the deep-political system and the confluence of international fractional reserve banking, capitalist-class corporate culture and the military industrial/security-state that I see. But for me what is going on in Indiana is just one small piece of the on-going neo-fascist global agenda. I do NOT identify with any of this as representing my ethics or my interests. As far as I'm concerned, these, and the institutions that shield them, ARE the enemy, and I'm not a citizen, but a subject living under their increasingly tyrannical rule.

For sure they are to be opposed, but I advise not accepting the illusion that they REPRESENT you or your interests in any way.

Your conclusions are extremely similar to my own Mike. I pretty much agree with everything you said...

The responsibility part though...I feel like we systematically allowed this to happen. Maybe we should have protested more...I was paying attention as each step unfolded..and I did protest...but maybe not enough. I feel like I failed myself sometimes....

The reason I insist on talking responsibility..it never left my mind that when Germans were asked why they let it happen in their backyard...they claimed "they didn't know"....

When you do know...it comes with a certain responsibility. Better to own it than pretend what the Germans did. OF COURSE THEY "KNEW"...but they WANTED to believe the propaganda...and they felt no responsibility for any of it...

[MikeW]

...The responsibility part though...I feel like we systematically allowed this to happen. Maybe we should have protested more…

Well, but you're taking this from the POV that "the system" in some sense of the word actually works in the sense that we are a "self governed" society. I disagree with this position; from my POV that is The Grand Illusion, not the reality. Demonstrations are no more effective in terms of changing the real structures of power that shape our world than are electoral politics.

This easily leads to a much bigger discussion than your OP intended and may well be off topic: What DOES make a difference in such a world? What IS our responsibility and how CAN we manifest responsible behavior in such a world?

I do agree that awareness is the key. Nothing can be done without it.

[East]

Well, but you're taking this from the POV that "the system" in some sense of the word actually works in the sense that we are a "self governed" society. I disagree with this position; from my POV that is The Grand Illusion, not the reality. Demonstrations are no more effective in terms of changing the real structures of power that shape our world than are electoral politics.

This easily leads to a much bigger discussion than your OP intended and may well be off topic: What DOES make a difference in such a world? What IS our responsibility and how CAN we manifest responsible behavior in such a world?

I do agree that awareness is the key. Nothing can be done without it.

I am reminded of a specific defining moment in my life that taught me a lot. I was actually in a hotel room in Berkeley...participating in the Model United Nations at UC Berkeley as I did every year...and I actually managed to write and push through committee a bill to go to the General Assembly. I think I was representing Finland that time...and it was exciting because it was my first resolution to make it through...

My roommates and me...well...we were "young"...and maybe too full of ourselves. I was composing a speech and very nervous and as I was listening to us all talk...I realized I was writing a speech to IMPRESS all the rest of my fellow delegates...and I wanted to "win" something...approval maybe?....and I realized how phony I was....and I had completely forgotten about WHAT I was saying and WHY I was saying it. I was operating in a haze...a complete disconnect... I wanted to be someone I wasn't...and it startled me.

So...I thought about it...and I also realized that I wanted the guy who wandered in off the street with a pretzel in his hand to understand me...I wanted to engage HIM most of all....so I basically just outlined what I wanted to say and left the rest to my gut. I was nervous as hell...but it was the best thing in the end because I managed to get people to hear me...and "I" got to hear me as well which was great....

...and so I learned that our voices are instruments and capable of "art"...much like a painting or a sculpture...and you have to talk to people on their own terms a lot for them to hear you....and this is where I fell short. I have the capability...and I used it for other things...

I agree with you that we are not self governed and that we are all under an illusion (and we are collectively screwed when enough of us don't believe it anymore BTW)..but someday..there will be a crack...and if we can effectively communicate...someone may turn a lightbulb on...and that may help someone else turn a lightbulb on...and maybe even effect a change...someday...somewhere down the line. In that same vein...we have at least some power to effect change on a few levels...and that helps as well...albeit a little...but a little is a lot when you realize what you are up against...

[Iceblink]

I am upset with a lot of people involved with this. The Indiana governor and its legislators, how in 2015 could they still be doing this? I am upset with the people trying to make it seem like many other states have the same law. Illinois next door has one that is about clergy and religious facilities, not something as broad as this one. Arizona has one, but contains a part about the reason not being something trivial, which I would take to mean something like a gas station would not be able to make a religious objection over a person of a certain group pumping gas at their business. A stronger version of a religious freedom bill, something more like the Indiana law, did not make it into law in Arizona. Some of the other religious freedom laws in other states concern things like allowing the Amish to operate a buggy on public roads or preventing eminent domain of church property. Despite what Mike Pence may say, this bill in Indiana was about allowing people and businesses to deny service to one group, gays and lesbians.

I am also still angry about those who are too busy to vote. Those thousands of protesters at the Indiana capital, I am fairly certain that not even half of them voted in the last election and it was probably something closer to 25%, if even that. Most of that group is liberals and progressives and they are terrible at voting.

I support the boycott of Indiana. There are many people in the state that do not support this decision by their government, but that doesn't change the fact that the law is still in effect. I see it as a consumer choice more than a boycott and Indiana would not currently be the best choice for me. I will soon return to Michigan for the summer and we sometimes make a drive from Detroit to Chicago which means we pass through Indiana. That hour it takes to get through it, I will not stop to fill up the car or to eat. I will make sure that is done in Michigan or Illinois. Prop 8 and California was mentioned. I would have supported a boycott of the state, but at that time it just was not going to be very effective. For a boycott to work, the money that would have had to have gone somewhere else and in 2008, other than the state of Massachusetts, there was no marriage equality state. Massachusetts would not have had the ability to pick up the slack all on its own. California did lose out in some business. Marriage tourism, and that is a real thing, they lost out on. Marriage equality supporters also did not just sit back and not do anything in California after the Prop 8 and one of those things was to expose and publish the names of those who contributed to the movement to repeal same-sex marriage. It angered many, but if you are someone actively working to change the laws or constitution in your state, something that legally changes the lives of citizens in your state, what makes you think you should be able to do that secretly and anonymously?

[East]

I am upset with a lot of people involved with this. The Indiana governor and its legislators, how in 2015 could they still be doing this? I am upset with the people trying to make it seem like many other states have the same law. Illinois next door has one that is about clergy and religious facilities, not something as broad as this one. Arizona has one, but contains a part about the reason not being something trivial, which I would take to mean something like a gas station would not be able to make a religious objection over a person of a certain group pumping gas at their business. A stronger version of a religious freedom bill, something more like the Indiana law, did not make it into law in Arizona. Some of the other religious freedom laws in other states concern things like allowing the Amish to operate a buggy on public roads or preventing eminent domain of church property. Despite what Mike Pence may say, this bill in Indiana was about allowing people and businesses to deny service to one group, gays and lesbians.

I am also still angry about those who are too busy to vote. Those thousands of protesters at the Indiana capital, I am fairly certain that not even half of them voted in the last election and it was probably something closer to 25%, if even that. Most of that group is liberals and progressives and they are terrible at voting.

I support the boycott of Indiana. There are many people in the state that do not support this decision by their government, but that doesn't change the fact that the law is still in effect. I see it as a consumer choice more than a boycott and Indiana would not currently be the best choice for me. I will soon return to Michigan for the summer and we sometimes make a drive from Detroit to Chicago which means we pass through Indiana. That hour it takes to get through it, I will not stop to fill up the car or to eat. I will make sure that is done in Michigan or Illinois. Prop 8 and California was mentioned. I would have supported a boycott of the state, but at that time it just was not going to be very effective. For a boycott to work, the money that would have had to have gone somewhere else and in 2008, other than the state of Massachusetts, there was no marriage equality state. Massachusetts would not have had the ability to pick up the slack all on its own. California did lose out in some business. Marriage tourism, and that is a real thing, they lost out on. Marriage equality supporters also did not just sit back and not do anything in California after the Prop 8 and one of those things was to expose and publish the names of those who contributed to the movement to repeal same-sex marriage. It angered many, but if you are someone actively working to change the laws or constitution in your state, something that legally changes the lives of citizens in your state, what makes you think you should be able to do that secretly and anonymously?

Love this post Ice...and I want to say one thing...

Back when Satan...err...I mean Saint Reagan was elected...in the days and weeks that followed and I heard people complaining...I asked them who they voted for. When they told me they didn't vote...I told them to STFU...if they didn't use their voice when it mattered...just STFU now.

I was a bitch about it...but along the way..I personally got a lot of people to register and also to vote. I offered a free drink to anyone who brought me a voting stub.

[hue]

The bill is couched in language suggesting its purpose is to protect religious liberty. It supposedly protects a persons right to refuse to violate their religious beliefs. By directly addressing the LGBT community, the Governor indirectly revealed the bill's true intent: to enable people to discriminate against members of the LGBT community.

I wonder how the Govenor will feel when the state's religious folk use the law to justify not paying taxes.

The Governor also said that he had no intention to give protected status to LGBTs.

Governor, I don't need special rights...just the rights everyone else has, Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness.

[Hardheaded1]

I guess you just had to make a personal move to become a Klansperson, or be co-opted in by another member, but now it's even worse, you don't have to do much, just belong to the state or visit the state and have to follow the rules or else you're a lawbreaker. So what, exactly, was your point, @Hardheaded1? Live and let live?

A re-read will show you where you missed the point. It was overt. Oppose the laws. Oppose evil. Avoid characterizing an entire populace as retrograde or throwback. Avoid justifying easy bigotry against Midwesterners based on past misdeeds. The current ones suffice to provide a target for repeal, not bigotry.

Case in point: when do we ignore Theodor Geisel's past and accept his latter condition, affirming diversity? These cartoons were drawn by him:







http://www.businessinsider.com/before-dr...012-3?op=1

And if we are to swallow that Indiana is a wasteland devoid of progressives or civility, a monoculture as we have been asked to believe, when did California earn its pardon for its past sins, including Prop 8, a direct referendum, not a bill?

Were these not just as much a part of California's heritage as the Klan in Indiana?

These California towns were "sundown towns" where blacks were threatened with violence if they remained in town after dark:

Anaheim
Anon
Antioch
Arcadia
Arcata
Arroyo Grande
Azusa
Bakersfield
Bayshore City
Bel Air
Berkeley
Bishop
Brea
Buena Park
Burbank
Burlingame
Cerritos
Chester
Chico
Compton
Corning
Costa Mesa
Crescent City
Culver City
Del Norte County
Dutch Flat
East Palo Alto
El Norte
Escondido
Eureka
Fillmore
Folsom
Fontana
Fresno
Garden Grove
Glendale
Gold Run
Grass Valley
Hawthorne
Hemet
Hidden Hills
Holy City
Humboldt County
Huntington Beach
Indian Wells
Inglewood
Irvine
Kernville
Kingsburg
La Habra
La Jolla
Lafayette
Lincoln
Lodi
Lomita
Lynwood
Manhattan Beach
Marysville
Mill Valley
Monterey Park
Napa
Nevada City
Newport Beach
Nicolaus
Norco
North Palo Alto
Oildale
Orange
Orange County
Orinda
Oroville
Palmdale
Palos Verdes Estates
Parlier
Pasadena
Piedmont
Placerville
Porterville
Red Bluff
Redding
Redlands
Redwood City
Riverside
Rocklin
Ross
San Fernando Valley
San Jacinto
San Jose
San Juan Bautista
San Juan Capistrano
San Leandro
San Marino
San Pablo
Santa Ana
Santa Cruz
Sawyers Bar
Selma
Sheridan
Sonora
South Gate
South Pasadena
Stanton
Taft
Tarzana
Torrance
Truckee
Visalia
Watsonville
Westfield
Westminster
Wheatland
Whittier
Yorba Linda

Were these signs a representative statement from California's past? Yes. But they don't define it today.







From Holtville, CA:



And journalists at Newsweek don't exactly find Silicon Valley to be the standard bearer of progress, even now:




And guess what? NONE of these accurately portray California. Why then is it fair to paint Indiana with one brush? It is no more a monoculture of bigotry than was CA when it passed Prop 8.