No advice sought as such - this is a rant

[James]

Like going to play pool on friday nights at my friends house, he has straight friends, bi friends, gay friends, but we all get along as it is a release for the weekend, good friends as we all know each other, and new people now and again, just real people when you come down to it, with no issues against the other, Jim

[Dattiv]

Hey,

I've been reading this thread with interest for a while, and I'm sorry to say this to some of the regular posters here, even though you give a lot of wise advice, personally I do agree with Sheppy and the Op here.

I'm bi and in the course of exploring I have encountered similar experiences. I'm not even talking about trying to approach good looking guys for dates or anything, but merely seeking friends just for chats. I've found good bi friends and straight friends who I could talk sh*t with, but difficult finding gay friends to do the same.

I also got the same sense that at least in the gay scene if they're not attracted to you you're pretty much on your own. Somehow bi and straight people just seem less judgmental, and dare I say, less shallow. I've had great conversations with the great looking straight girls, but got rebuffed by guys at gay bars when I literally only wanted to know where the bathroom was. I mean really??

I'm sure there are people who are not like this, but I've also read enough similar experiences around the web to think that this is not unique. I think there should be some compassion instead of blaming it all on the OP.

[East]

Dattiv...the problem for me is that I worked in a gay bar for 20 years...full time..and I was always out and about when I wasn't ..and I have seen a lot.....and know quite a lot about gay men and social interaction..and how it all works....

...and usually in about two seconds I can see what the problem is...and I am kind enough not to say it usually. It is almost never about looks...or weight...or age...it is almost ALWAYS about attitude...and it is easy to recognize the attitude when you hear someone talk....or watch the body language...or pay attention to their vibe...

Straight guys who aren't exactly Mr Personality say the same things about straight women in a bar...

...they have been saying it for years...same complaints....shallow....stuck up...only interested in (blah blah blah)....

Here's the thing. They are usually as shallow or more shallow as the women they say are shallow...and that word "shallow" is bandied about a lot.....I would rethink the use of that word....because when I hear it used...it almost always says something about the person using it...and nothing about anyone else....

I am not trying to be snarky...but I get tired of hearing people bitch about gay men and as a gay man...I feel like responding....

I can tell you, for instance...that most anyone who bitches about gay men would want nothing at all to do with me...nothing....they don't even see me....(and I know why)

Just like the women who bitch about men don't see me...or the men who bitch about women don't see me....they look right through me....

...and I see the kinds of people who they do seek out. They are people who validate their opinions and agree with them...

[Sheppy]

I understand your frustration with such a misreading of your intentions… I've had similar things happen (not always with gay men). I'm curious, how did you respond to that accusation?

I told him that I didn't know (or care) about the wheelchair, I just wanted to have a friendly chat. He told me he wasn't interested so I just said take care and went to the bar for another drink. The barman must have seen what happened and said that the guy already has a boyfriend.

Just says it all, really.

[Dattiv]

...and I see the kinds of people who they do seek out. They are people who validate their opinions and agree with them...

So here's the situation here. East, I think I understand your points and they are valid, but here's what I'm getting at:

When I go to straight bars sometimes I strike up conversations with random people, not looking for dates or hook ups, just to have friendly chat about news, sports...etc. or whatever is playing on TV. Sometimes I get good conversations, sometimes people just want to drink and that's fine.

I go to gay bars and try to do the same, again, not looking for dates or hookups, not specifically seeking out anyone who's good looking or whatever, and more often than not I get eye rolls or like you say so yourself, being treated like invisible. I guess I'm naive thinking gay bars work the same as straight bars.

Yes I admit I, like many people, are attracted to good looking people but a lot of times I'm only looking for friendly chats.

Another example similar to Sheppy's wheelchair fellow: A less attractive guy, slightly effeminate, tried to strike up a conversation with a better looking guy, got totally shut out in a bad way and he was looking really upset so I went to ask if he was ok. The response I got was similar, essentially something along the line of not attracted to you because you don't look a certain way. WTF?! I'm not even attracted to him. So do I need to look like a f'ing model just to be nice to someone?

[East]

Sometimes ..... the chemistry just isn't there...or there just isn't any interest....or they aren't in the mood....

..and when that happens..why does it have to be anything other than that?

So many times...people feel terrified...or angry....or defensive...when it comes to rejection...and they want to dissect it and make the person who rejected them on any level "wrong"...but anytime you want..you can take it as the gift that it is...and you can do that with almost any situation in life....

Maybe they don't feel like conversing?.....

Maybe there is a reason why that you can never imagine?

As a bartender...if I like them well enough when these conversations would arise....and they did as a lot of people have very fragile egos..I would gently direct them to the mirror...and show them the times they rejected someone ...or didn't stop to talk to anyone themselves....there are obvious conclusions of course..but this is where I bowed out because they aren't my conclusions to make......

[Buzzer]

WTF?! I'm not even attracted to him. So do I need to look like a f'ing model just to be nice to someone?

I just don't think how one or two anecdotes treated you in a bar tells you anything more about the whole wide swath of gay people on the planet than the list I could give you of all the straight women who acted like me even speaking to them must be me trying to hump their leg tells me that straight people are all shallow or self absorbed.

I also think you may vastly underestimate the stories you could go find about what heavyset women experience when they go up to straight men, if you think that gay men have some special kind of monopoly on this behavior.

[Beaux]

So here's the situation here. East, I think I understand your points and they are valid, but here's what I'm getting at:

When I go to straight bars sometimes I strike up conversations with random people, not looking for dates or hook ups, just to have friendly chat about news, sports...etc. or whatever is playing on TV. Sometimes I get good conversations, sometimes people just want to drink and that's fine.

I go to gay bars and try to do the same, again, not looking for dates or hookups, not specifically seeking out anyone who's good looking or whatever, and more often than not I get eye rolls or like you say so yourself, being treated like invisible. I guess I'm naive thinking gay bars work the same as straight bars.

Yes I admit I, like many people, are attracted to good looking people but a lot of times I'm only looking for friendly chats.

Another example similar to Sheppy's wheelchair fellow: A less attractive guy, slightly effeminate, tried to strike up a conversation with a better looking guy, got totally shut out in a bad way and he was looking really upset so I went to ask if he was ok. The response I got was similar, essentially something along the line of not attracted to you because you don't look a certain way. WTF?! I'm not even attracted to him. So do I need to look like a f'ing model just to be nice to someone?

We are up to post #38 in this thread, and despite a lot of attempts by posters to be understanding and to help those seeking answers to situations that they deem "unfair", the Negetive Nancys are determined that nothing they have encountered could possibly be caused by their attitudes or could in any way be there own faults.
SO...I am sorry to all my co-conspirators, but I MUST let them in on the TRUTH! You are Right! Those of us who have boyfriends, lovers, and husbands ARE all ravishingly GORGEOUS! We are the epitome of beauty and cannot accept into our circles any of you Lesser Troglodytes who hungerly circle our steaming hot bods lustfully!
There! Is that what you wanted to hear? If so, your welcome!
~Beaux

[Buzzer]

We are up to post #38 in this thread, and despite a lot of attempts by posters to be understanding and to help those seeking answers to situations that they deem "unfair", the Negetive Nancys are determined that nothing they have encountered could possibly be caused by their attitudes or could in any way be there own faults.
SO...I am sorry to all my co-conspirators, but I MUST let them in on the TRUTH! You are Right! Those of us who have boyfriends, lovers, and husbands ARE all ravishingly GORGEOUS! We are the epitome of beauty and cannot accept into our circles any of you Lesser Troglodytes who hungerly circle our steaming hot bods lustfully!
There! Is that what you wanted to hear? If so, your welcome!
~Beaux

... yeah I'm purty too. What he said!

[MikeW]

....I am sorry to all my co-conspirators, but I MUST let them in on the TRUTH! You are Right! Those of us who have boyfriends, lovers, and husbands ARE all ravishingly GORGEOUS! We are the epitome of beauty and cannot accept into our circles any of you Lesser Troglodytes....

IKR!



I've never been an "A" gay; never ever even seen my abs. I've been balding or bald most of my adult life. Have I been rejected and dissed by sick bitches? Damn straight I have. Who the fuck hasn't?! Have I been on dates. YEP. Have I had gay friends (just friends)? Oh, hell yeah... at one time when I was very active in SFBA social circles I had a little black book of over 100 gay men's names and phone numbers. I may have slept with a few of them (can't remember) but these were not "conquests" or hook up potentials or w/e... they were just gay men I knew. More over I've been in TWO gay LTRs...

The question is, how is that even possible for someone like me... a relatively ordinary man appearance wise... in a superficial and judgmental "gay scene"? SIMPLE... I never played "the scene". I mean, yeah, sometimes I'd go out with friends... The Stud, The Eagle, Twin Peaks, The End Up, The Raw Hide (that was the name, right?)... and many others... but (for the most part) I wasn't there to find a hookup (let alone a friend or date). For that I used other, more egalitarian, social venues.

SO yeah, [MENTION=22722]Dattiv[/MENTION], I'd have to agree that *in general* gay bars are NOT like neighborhood straight bars. So many variables... but many of them are geared to a particular "type" of sexual interest. Probably the closest to a neighborhood gay bar that I can think of is the oldest continuously operated gay bar in the US, "The White Horse," just a few blocks from where I live. Check it out sometime... but don't ever think there won't be SOME people there with an attitude. Most likely there will always be.