Do you believe in gods?

[Virge]

I definitely relate to what @JohnSomeboy said. I don't talk about my beliefs much or I try not to because it always ends up in a debate that I don't want to participate in.

12 years in a catholic boys school was all the religion I want to experience in this lifetime. Logic and Reason totally eliminate the possibility of a god -- but dammit I can't go hardly a day without something that defies logic and reason slamming me in the face. I have no choice but to believe but it's no a belief in a stereotypical form of a god.

I've talked in GS about some of the things that have happened... I should be dead five times over but that's not what reenforces my belief in a god.

I'm not going to go into details but here's how I picture "god" or whoever he/she/it is. I'm his designated errand boy and handyman. If he's too busy to get to something he drops it on me... and I've had some crazy unbelievable crap fall in my lap the past 6 years, 7 months and 12 days. I'm talking about problems that aren't even mine that I end up helping people get out of or over. It happens so much it spooks my hubby out. (I'm not used to calling him a hubby but it sounds better than referring to him as the jackass I married)

It's like god sends me the crazy crap he doesn't have time to do and I'm dumb enough to keep on doing it and laughing about... wondering what the hell is next.

[MikeW]

mrex and MikeW

I just offered some thoughts regarding your latest post but is is trapped in the "moderator" jail. I hope you watch for it. Until then, thanks for your continued sharing of ideas.

For future reference, now that you have 50+ posts you won't be hassled by that automatic moderation. Moreover, if you quote some part of a person's post or put an @ symbol directly in front of the member name, the system will send your post to them via email (unless they have that feature turned off in their preferences).

I haven't time to read your post just yet but I will and will reply when I have time.

[MikeW]

... However, I am still going to pray for you.

It isn't necessary, really, but if you feel the need to do so, go right ahead.

It might help to know that I've always had a very personal relationship with with you're calling "God the Creator". From birth I've been guided to all sorts of things... certainly a path far different from your own. And I would wager, far different from most rural midwestern boys in general. I too have seen things you wouldn't even believe if I told you. Some having so few correspondences with our ordinary experience of living I'm at a loss for words to even describe them. But all that said, I can tell you that my family was fairly religious in the conventional sense. From roughly age 10 to 12, I carried a red-letter New Testament with me everywhere I went. I read it constantly. It spoke to me. But not only "it"... but something else that I would sometimes find as I walked the farmland, the woods and the creek beds. I didn't have the words for it at the time but now I say I was a "nature mystic," meaning that I had many spiritual awakenings while in nature. But what was odd was, WHAT my New Testament said TO ME often varied considerably from what I was told it meant by other adults around me. For example, I'm quite convinced that one of the things the New Testament is showing us is that IMMORTALITY is a *real* possibility. So far as I can make out the entirety of the Christian teaching is about the possibility of an inner transformation toward that end. [EDIT, re-worded] The teachings of Jesus are set in the transformative language of esoteric thought -- from water, wine, seeds, stones, loves of bread -- leavened and unleavened -- the washing of feet (the base of material thinking of mankind) and so on -- its all about the this possible inner transformation.

I've told this story in the forum previously so others are familiar with it already.

On the day I was to be baptized in the Southern Baptist Church my family attended, it *burned to the ground.* No joke.

The back story is that the 12 year olds of the congregation gave themselves to Christ en-mass (me included) and were all to be baptized simultaneously during a Sunday evening service (either on or near Easter, can't recall). HOWEVER, I got the measles and was unable to attend, much less participate in, this collective ritual cleansing.

Some weeks later, early June as I recall, a special baptismal service was arranged JUST FOR ME. My home was only a few blocks from the church and that Sunday morning my family had gone to services as usual. My baptismal was even announced to the congregation, inviting all to attend. Afterward, as I played in the back yard waiting for my mother to finish preparing dinner (the noon meal for us was "dinner," especially on Sundays), I noticed there was thick black smoke rolling directly over my head. Very, very odd. I hopped on my bicycle and started riding in the direction the smoke was coming from and soon found myself in the grade-school play ground, catercorner to the Church lot.

Smoke was billowing from the windows and and from under the eaves and within minutes flames were breaking through. The town water tower was across the street in an otherwise vacant lot and, by this time, the siren for the volunteer firemen atop it was sounding and many adults and kids had come out to witness the conflagration. The firemen were far too late to salvage anything; all they could do, really, was water the building down to prevent embers from blowing around, potentially causing more damage. When the steeple collapsed into the naive, the building exploded into billowing black smoke, fire and I might as well say "brimstone" for it looked for all the world like something right out of a Cecil B. DeMille movie.

Naturally I was rather awe struck by this site. What to make of it this? Within myself I felt (more so than "heard") that inner voice that had guided me thus far say, quite clearly, "This is not your path." I even chuckled to myself a bit and chided "God," and replied, "Ok, but you didn't have to burn the church down to tell me that!" I wasn't like clueless or anything, really!

Everyone has their own epistemology, their own faith, whatever that may be. I don't have too much of a bug up my butt about people who consider themselves a member of a particular religion, philosophy or belief system; if that's what works for them in their lives. Where I draw the line is when it becomes "absolutist" (and this is true regarding atheists, too); meaning someone who thinks THEY have THE one and only answer and everyone else SHOULD see the world they way they do.

My whole point from my beginning post is, although we (humans) may agree on many things, there will always be differences in how we experience life. That's one of the beauties of it. In a sense, each of us is smack dab in the middle of our own cosmos, unique to us. And yet, we are all connected together through "life" and qualities of energy our science doesn't (yet) recognize. Thus the fundamental moral rules or codes of conduct, such as do unto others as you would have them do unto you, should apply across the board. We're all here to learn.

So, my path has taken me far, far afield from the thoughts of most men. And it isn't just "thinking" either. I've been there and back more than once. I've touched the him of the divine and have seen for myself directly that eternity is a reality available to any and all.

[Chase]

I don't believe in gods but I do believe in the Almighty God himself.

That would be me. Start worshiping, chop chop! I'm not saying you have to, but, you know, you'll go to Hell if you don't.

[JohnSomebody]

Incredible JohnSomebody. Great to know you knew it was more than science that helped you.

I am not sure why so many have this idea that God is up there controlling what we do and "punishing" people. If you were a father of many kids, you would want the best for all of them and you would do what you could to help them. However, out of love, if they were rebellious, didn't want to listen to your advice about how to live, and rejected you, and you didn't do anything to cause this, all you would have left is to just love them and hope they change. As a good father who loves your children, you would always be ready to accept them back when they were ready and sorry for how they treated you. God is no different. He does not force his will upon us and He still loves us no matter what we do with our free will. In the end, there is an accounting for how we lived. I think that is fair. How He deals with us then is His choice. After all, He made us. I am shooting for His mercy because I certainly haven't lived a perfect life. Only one person who ever walked this earth has. We all categorize how bad each bad thing we all do is. To God, its all just bad so He needs to look at our heart to determine who we really are. For those who see this transition in our lives when we die as energy changing its form, then the scientific fact needs to be applied that nothing happens without something causing it to happen. So who is cause of controlling the change in energy form. And let's not forget that quantum physic scientists believe the universe is made up equally of positive energy and negative energy. I think I would like whoever is controlling the energy to keep me in the positive side. Loving negative people is hard enough. I certainly don't want to end up 100% negative.

I love your response and your words are so well put RUoutthere...I could not have responded any better...I thank you for responding in such an eloquent way...JS

[Steve]

Do you believe in gods? I'm not starting the old verbal battle whether gods exist or not. I'm an atheist myself but I just wonder what percent of the LGBT actually do believe in gods.

No.

Until such time as "all things" are explained, proven, and I have not only a complete understanding of the meaning, but unbiased experience, no I do not believe in god(s). I will not assign meaning, form, nor explanation to a question with which mankind may only hypothesize. While I find current views upon the subject interesting, I am not persuaded that our race has even a fraction of the knowledge needed to definitively answer this question. Often, although not always, I find that explanations offered are either open ended, meaning answers merely lead to more questions and not a final explanation, or are circular in logic, such as the Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible (the simplest of example).

If I feign understanding of an explanation of all things (which is necessary, I think, to answer the question), then I may as well be reduced to early man worshiping the sun, or the moon.

Subjective to human error and speaking in terms of linear time only, arguably rough estimates of the cosmic age are 13.73 +/- 0.12 billion years old. The Earth is posited to be some 4.5 billion years old. Our ancestors, which may or may not have been the only intelligent life existing in Earth's history, are estimated at 6 million years old and the modern form of humanity is widely believed to have evolved nearly 2 hundred thousand years ago. Civilized humanity comes in at an approximate 6 thousand years. Excluding the possibilities of multiple dimensions and non linear time, in that light existence has barely fertilized humanity. While I believe questions concerning the genesis of all things are worth asking, (questions being the usual beginning of knowledge) providing an end all, be all answer seems pious.

Until our race ever knows indisputable truth, which may or may not be possible, I choose no, I do not believe in god. I will not label what I cannot presume to explain, not even with the benefit of the doubt. Even if I happen to ponder such an idea, I am comfortable in my simplicity.

[RUoutthere]

It isn't necessary, really, but if you feel the need to do so, go right ahead.

So, my path has taken me far, far afield from the thoughts of most men. And it isn't just "thinking" either. I've been there and back more than once. I've touched the him of the divine and have seen for myself directly that eternity is a reality available to any and all.

Hi MikeW,

Not sure if I got this method of communicating correct. Still new to GS. I don't mind if my response is public, but I am hoping it gets to your e-mail in case you are not tracking this post about gods.

Thanks for the exchange of thoughts and your view of life. I certainly believe and respect all the influences you mentioned that have shaped your thinking. You have had a very interesting life. maybe I will get to know more about you over time.

To you and to all others who read this, I feel Christianity has grown huge since Christ walked the earth. Most would agree it is the largest of faith religions worldwide. Throughout its developing years, there have been many denominations created and many self proclaimed authorities for what is written in the Bible. This is in large part due to content of the Bible being written in such a way that it allows for personal interpretation of a lot of the scriptures. I believe in God and therefore I believe He had a reason for this although I have no idea of what it is.

Even if we eliminate the vast majority of interpretations and just tried to look at the major recognized Christian denominations, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Reformation, Pentecostal, and Calvinist our minds would be so confused. I have noticed that many of the posts on this subject seem to have a lot of misunderstanding between the Old and New Testaments. Old Testament is not Christianity although it is the foundation that Jesus fulfilled. He brought new hope and commandments of forgiveness and love.

Some of the comments directed at my input have been pretty harsh. I didn't join GS to be controversial or judgmental. I am gay and was looking for open minded exchanges of thought between fellow gay brothers. Not to be persuaded or to persuade. My last 10 years or so of understanding the message that God sent through Jesus has changed me greatly. I use to have many bad qualities that I no longer have. I didn't just say I do not have anymore bad qualities but I am working on the remaining ones. Trouble is, new ones seem to keep popping up. And no, I do not have any beliefs that being gay is a bad quality. Along with many other verses in the Bible, I do not understand those that address homosexuality. If the God I believe in says it is a sin, then He and I will deal with it together. I don't feel condemnation, I am not being punished, and most important, I don't feel like God does not love me. I feel He is like any father with a child that makes up their own mind about how to live their life. He may not like what I do and I believe He has His reasons but I can just feel His continuing love for me because I still love Him even though He has not felt He needs to explain Himself to me. My real father had many things he believed in that he did not feel he needed to explain to me either and yet we have done just fine (God rest his soul).

The Bible is quite clear that there are many in the world who won't believe. So I am not going to try to change that. Jesus commanded that those who believe in Him are to go into all the world and tell about Him. He never said it was our job to convince anyone or judge anyone. When He was asked which commandment was the most important, He said "I give you a new commandment, Love one another". That's pretty simple and basic for me. Most of the controversy I hear is from those on both sides that try to make Christianity more complex than it is. This is were the extremes and the conservatives create the resistance of many to even talk about it. That is sad.

I accept whatever people want to believe. I love them no matter what they believe.

I hope this helps those understand they don't need to bow up on me on this topic or any other. One of Dr. Stephen Convey's 7 habits for highly effective people is: First seek to understand, then to be understood. I find those who express why they think the way they do far more interesting than those who criticize how I think.

Blessings to you all my fellow gay brothers.

[MikeW]

Hi MikeW,

Not sure if I got this method of communicating correct. Still new to GS. I don't mind if my response is public, but I am hoping it gets to your e-mail in case you are not tracking this post about gods.....

Thanks, yes you did it correctly. If you quote someone the system sends the post to the quoted person (unless they have that feature turned off in their preferences). If you click on the user name to the left of a post, a drop down menu of options appears. One of them is (forget just how it is worded) "quote post in private email" (or something like that). That way you can quote someone AND send it privately to their in-box.

In any case I respect your faith. Throughout my years of learning, I've delved fairly deeply into not only comparative religion (I've been most interested in Hinduism and Buddhism), but also into the subject of esotericism. This latter is a much misunderstood topic, even by most academics who *think* they know what it is.

You mention not knowing why the Bible is written in such a way that it can be interpreted differently by different people. My answer to that question is "because there are different types of people" AND "because there are DIFFERING LEVELS OF UNDERSTANDING". Both these concepts are fundamental "esoteric" ideas.

I'm going to write about that for a bit here. My doing so is not an attempt to "persuade" you of anything; rather it is my wish to write about it in a public forum and to share information I've had the privilege of receiving. Whether anyone "gets it" or not isn't all that important to me. Nice, but not essential.

There are differing "types" of people. Of course a "type" is, in a sense, a "stereotype" or a "generalization". That is, although there are types, every human being is unique, possesses aspects of all the types, and yet, to some extent, is "more one type than another."

For example there is what could be called the "literalist" type. People of this type tend to think in absolute dichotomies: Black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. For them there are few "shades of gray" about meaningful things. I place most "fundamentalist" Christians in this class. They take the words of the Bible fairly literally, and use them as brackets for moral an ethical points of view. They tend to prefer the Old Testament to the New.

Another type is the "emotional" type. These are people who fundamentally relate to the world through their emotions. They relate to the Bible more from a point of view of faith and devotion. They sometimes look at the "subtext" of testaments and, in any case, relate to "God" on a very personal level. They tend to like the New Testament more than the Old (but not always).

There are "intellectual" types who can spend years researching and debating the fine points of "meaning". They may be theologians or professors of religion or they may be lay-persons who approach the Bible not so much as a matter of faith, but as a representation of very complex cultural tradition (for example). They may or may not "believe" in a literal "Jesus".

Now, those three (or combinations thereof) comprise the majority of people who may call themselves "Christians" (or adherents to any other religion or philosophy, for that matter). However there is yet another "type" and, for lack of a better word, I call them "the mystics."

The mystics begin as one of the other three but somewhere along the way they begin to move beyond the limitations of their "type" and begin to look more deeply into the nature of reality itself (including the nature of their own existence). FOR THEM, the Bible can be understood *as an esoteric teaching*: That is, a book that teaches the possibility of "inner transformation".

This class of people generally keep themselves "hidden" from the other three types. That is to say, "hidden in plain sight". They may appear to be quite "ordinary" from all outward appearances, seldom intentionally drawing strong attention to themselves from "the masses". They most likely live quite, ordinary lives (outwardly), BUT INWARDLY there is a whole other process going on. THEY have begun to understand that "true" Christianity *is a form of alchemy*. That is to say, they understand that what it is all about is inner transformation from the base materials of "personality" into something else, and very specifically, INTO SOMETHING THAT CAN WITHSTAND THE DEATH AND DISINTEGRATION OF THE MATERIAL BODY (including the brain).

You might recall being a child who, standing up, could barely see up on the dinner table all laid out fancy for a fancy dinner party the adults would be having. You might be invited to sit and eat with them, but likely you would NOT understand what they were talking about. THIS is a metaphor for the concept of "levels of understanding". You, as a child, have a certain level of understanding about things... but it is limited by your lack of education so far and by your lack of experience in the world. Don't get me wrong, I think children DO (or can) have a PROFOUND understanding of things that sometimes goes beyond that of adults. All I'm doing is painting a picture in words of HOW "esotericism" works. You wouldn't say, really, that the adults at the dinner party are keeping "secrets" from the child (they may or may not be, that's not the point). Simply by knowing things the child does not and cannot know, their conversation amongst themselves will simply go over the child's head.

Esoteric teachings within the Bible are not "hidden" OR "deliberately obscured." What they are, are teachings that are presented in a form that is MEANT for those of the "mystic" type.

As an example (and forgive me for being too lazy to look this up so I get the story just right), there is a story in the Bible about Jesus and a, tree; a fig tree I believe it was. Anyone who wants to google this can dig into it. It's a VERY strange story where Jesus goes to the tree and bids it bear fruit and it doesn't so he WITHERS the tree. (How can a tree, a mere plant with no will whatsoever. refuse the commandment of "The Son of God"?.. the story simply makes no sense taken at face value. So... what is this little parable about? WELL... the tree *represents* an ESOTERIC SCHOOL. Jesus is demanding that the school BEAR FRUIT and it demonstrates what happens if such a school DOES NOT DO SO; it "withers". (Or, worse, it becomes a potentially heretical teaching.)

I'll not go further with this little presentation. Again, I'm simply sharing what I've learned in my years of exploring this particular subject (Christianity). EVERY true religion is divided into esoteric and exoteric: The outer form and the inner meaning. WHAT one understands of a religion depends on what "type" of person one is; whether one has the capacity to go deeper into the meaning of "texts" than the obvious "pictures" they paint in the mind. What one finds when one digs into the esoteric sides of any religion is that the various religions HAVE COMMON GROUND. That is to say, the true ones, the ones that teach the real possibility of inner transformation, COME FROM THE SAME SOURCE. Thus, within esoteric circles, what religion you have emerged from within... the symbol sets that guided you to your looking deeper into yourself and applying the principals of transformation... are not that important. What matters is whether or not one "awakens" ... So, simply note the many parables about seeds and the sewers thereof, what happens to seeds that fall on rocky soil and cannot take root; the miraculous transformation of "water" (one of the four fundamental elements) into "wine" (which, like legend bread, has a "spirit" alive within it); and such things as marriages and the need to STAY AWAKE, for one never knows WHEN or from where the Bride's Groom will come.

"The delay in the arrival of the Second Coming exists for those whose expectations lie in linear time and literal meaning." The true second coming is Revelation: The awakened state wherein, as Paul put it, "We have the mind of Christ."

[RUoutthere]

the subject of esotericism. This latter is a much misunderstood topic, even by most academics who *think* they know what it is.

You mention not knowing why the Bible is written in such a way that it can be interpreted differently by different people. My answer to that question is "because there are different types of people" AND "because there are DIFFERING LEVELS OF UNDERSTANDING". Both these concepts are fundamental "esoteric" ideas.

Esoteric teachings within the Bible are not "hidden" OR "deliberately obscured." What they are, are teachings that are presented in a form that is MEANT for those of the "mystic" type.

Interesting that you shared this point of view. You probably have already dealt with those who have issues with esotericism since at the heart of it, it is meant only for a select group of people with special knowledge. I found it interesting that you presented such an in depth explanation since my understanding of Christianity has a very limited group of believers who tend to feel the majority of Christians cannot seem to comprehend its doctrine. Not to be mysterious about it, it is simply the doctrine of predestination and the form of it that I believe in. Not the prescient view but the Augustinian view. In your identification, I think this would make me a mystic and comprehending the Bible through esoteric analysis.

I do admire your vast undertaking to search for answers in life. You have far outdone any that I have done. I think it is great that it has and seems to continue to be an important venture for you.

I like clarity on a subject. Once I received what I learned over time to believe is a calling from God, I searched for more clarity.The more books, tapes, CD's, videos, and speakers I gathered information from, the more I realized how complicated so many were trying to make it. How many took radical paths and narrow mindedness.

In the simplest understanding for me, in the beginning man received a jump start of information to begin his journey of evolving. I believe this was provided by a force that shaped the universe and I am comfortable assigning the title God. What form He is does not concern me. He could be just pure energy (positive energy of course). However, this creation called man was not very cooperative with God due to the design of free will. Since I believe God doesn't make mistakes, I hope that why he made us this way will be understood when I cease to exist as a human. If not, I at least look forward to believing I will because of faith. (Side bar) Since His design included knowing there would gay people because it was written in the earliest scriptures, I do not have a problem with being gay because again, I do not think God makes mistakes. From His point of view, in order to be perfect and totally righteous, a human would not only not be gay but it would also not have all the other characteristics that are identified in the Bible as sin. So I am in good company with ALL the rest of the world that are not perfect. We are the one who have assigned degrees of imperfection, not God.

I also accept that I was born into this world imperfect along with every other human being. However, from my esoteric view of predestination, God's plan includes a chosen group of humans. They are called by Him. Romans 8: 28-30. ......For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son..... And those whom He predestined He also called and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom he justified He also glorified (saved).

Now I have a feeling any who have read this (except maybe those like you MikeW) will surely blast me. I didn't write the scripture. I only interpreted it. I don't even have any idea whether I am of the elect. This may cause one to think I am totally crazy but I assure you, I have a sincere peace about it.

It is what allows me not to judge anyone's beliefs. I know that not all are called so because we have these great minds, it allows us to venture down all types of conclusions about what life is all about. It is also why man is so unaccepting of any other beliefs that would imply they are doomed.

To your point that most religions share a common concept that they offer some way of inner transformation I would add my point of view that it is not a transformation that man can make. It will only happen if called by God and He causes the transformation.

So what should my life be about. The answer came from Jesus. Matthew 22: 37-40 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If every person in the world just loved one another, truly loved one another and didn't judge, all the bad in the world would be gone. So I live my life focused on loving everyone I meet no matter what they are like. It is far from easy and I slip often. But I keep trying.

Love to all that read this. If you feel you have to criticize me for it and it makes you feel better, go for it. It won't change how I feel about you.

[RUoutthere]

I guess I didn't do it quite right. The first three paragraphs in my last psot were meant to be quotes from MikeW's last post. I'll get better at this. LOL