Where do you draw the line?

[East]

It is time to ask for advice again for a long ongoing problem that I have been stuck on for years...and paralyzed...would like to find the answer if there is one....

I suspect until the day I die I will always be struggling to figure out where "the line" is...and I am prepared to accept that....BUT....there is this one SPECIFIC thing that I think I can change if I can figure out where to draw the line.....and that is what I need advice about....

Bottom Line....IF I think there is no point trying to explain or tell the truth about something..I kinda wash my hands of the situation...and I am done with it.,...

Two examples of many that I think will help define this thing...

The first one...I know I have been an asshole to a lot of guys in the past....and though I have a lot of excuses and I TRULY don't mean any harm on any level to any of them...I felt trapped a lot and when that happens...I usually quietly open up the cage and let myself out without an explanation or another word about it...and when they figure it out...they get kinda...mad....furious....pissed off...which makes my resolve to ignore the whole thing even stronger....

If you have read this far..thank you...and if you can bear with me..I see no other way to get to my point without explaining in detail this next part of it....still on the first example....the second example is a lot shorter...

This guy in the not too distant past one day was parked next to me opened his car door and intentionally slammed it real hard into mine leaving a considerable dent...and when I saw who it was...I said nothing..and he didn't acknowledge me at all.....and when my BF asked me why I didn't say anything..I told him the story...and he always pretty much loves me unconditionally so he didn't criticize me at all even though I asked him to because I am sure I have some culpability in this....and this is why I am asking you guys....

You see...when people on gay boards complain about "that guy"...well...I am often "that guy" and it is weird ...and refreshing...hearing people talk about it...and I wonder if their "that guy" was anything like me....and by "that guy"...I mean "that asshole."......

If my life was in chapters..this chapter was when I was 24-26...right after a bad relationship...and before the bad relationship when I was 19-21 I had a series of stalkers which is kinda important to the equation because a lot of my behavior after that was due to what I learned dealing with them....

So..in this chapter which I think is normal for that age..I had a lot of guys who wanted to build me a picket fence and make babies...guys who decided I would be a good mate....and the thing is...I worked in a very busy gay nightclub so unlike most people who can walk away from a situation that they are not comfortable with..I was trapped behind the bar so whatever fantasy anyone wanted to play out with me or any other bartender....wasn't many places we could hide.

Also..you have to be VERY CAREFUL how you deal with these situations if you are not interested...this is what I learned the hard way from the stalkers...so I learned to keep my impulsive and very blunt matter of fact honest voice to myself as to not suffer the consequences of telling the truth....
and there are very real consequences sometimes...

...so I learned to walk a line I HATED walking...and I got trapped in it. When they say the truth will set you free.....you better believe it! The thing with this group of guys..they were all decent guys...and if I am really honest...there was just no sexual or romantic chemistry for me with any of them...nothing at all wrong with them in my eyes....

...and this is where I think looking back I might have been an asshole. I would decline dates and maybe flirt with them a little bit..I would let them do "stuff" for me sometimes which looking back was a HUGE MISTAKE because I was leading them on and I own that...I wish I hadn't have done that...

...and now comes the guy who hit my door...very wealthy man...I had a few of those...and the thing is...money does NOT impress me. If anything ... it turns me off if you try to buy me...and this guy did just that. Very extravagant ...over the top extravagant..and one time when he gave me a very expensive gift. I explained it was inappropriate... VERY POLITELY I might add... and gave it back to him...but I also left him sitting at an expensive restaurant and in the front row of a sold out theatre performance among other things. I had said no many times in a nice way but he kept insisting I would show up or change my mind...and so I stopped saying no...or saying anything...and he soon began to hate me which I regretted but I knew I "deserved it" for not being more forceful with him........

WHEW!!!! I think that was enough....I could go on for pages about that period of my life and what I might need to apologize for :eek:

Now....the second part..in business mostly...stupid questions....

When people frame a question where it is insulting...or they give me a position I did not take and ask me to defend it or explain it..I just walk away mentally and ignore them and do not respond. I am fine with it...well...until it occurred to me that maybe it was time to step up and find a way to respond without going off on them......

So....the line...where is it? If the world were as I would like it to be...I would just say what I think with no censorship and be fine with it. The thing is though..life is full of crazy fucks who are toxic and want to play games with you which is what I am trying to avoid by avoiding these situations and questions...like go ahead and think what you want of me but no way will I engage in things like "I saw this for 20.00 once...why aren't you selling yours for 20.00?...that is what I expect to pay"....

My actual response..."Well next time you see it for 20.00...fucking buy it" Christ....

....and so many other things I wont' even go into....

My specific questions....

So... the guy in question...do you think I owe him an apology?...he is still mad after ALOT of years have gone by...was I a bigger asshole than I realize?

...and even more important...should I start addressing every business question that appears in front of me even if I start cussing them out in my mind? Is it good practice?...or is avoiding them the best approach as even though I think it works for me ...but I think I might be out of line.?

I am tired of trying to figure out where the line is all the time..wastes waaaaaayyyyy too much of my time. I need a solid plan.

Putting my head in the sand seems great but if it is so great...why am I always second guessing myself? I suspect I am blind to something....

Help! Any advice?

[Beaux]

I have been in similar situations. I had a guy give me a restored 1952 Ford Coupe for my 30th birthday along with the request that I "give him a chance" and go out on a date with him. After the date, I gave the car back because I knew I was t attracted to him. A couple of weeks later he committed suicide. His friends blamed me for it and ran me out of town on a rail.

You don't "owe" anyone. You don't "owe" them ANYTHING. Not even an apology.

~Beaux

[East]

I have been in similar situations. I had a guy give me a restored 1952 Ford Coupe for my 30th birthday along with the request that I "give him a chance" and go out on a date with him. After the date, I gave the car back because I knew I was t attracted to him. A couple of weeks later he committed suicide. His friends blamed me for it and ran me out of town on a rail.

You don't "owe" anyone. You don't "owe" them ANYTHING. Not even an apology.

~Beaux

Oh Wow!...Thanks for telling me that Beaux...that is a horrible situation. I feel for you ...do you get a bit of PTSD from it ever? I am glad you said that about owing because you are right...and his friends blaming you for what he did...what a rough spot to be put in to. I am glad you refused to be responsible

Thinking about it....what I really would like to tell the one guy I was talking about is "the truth". Just simply the truth without having to worry about his feelings or how he might react...and then I would ask him why he knocked into my car door....DAMNIT!

..same with the customers which at the moment I am contemplating my "official stance"......

DAMN...I just wish I could understand where the line is.....the balance....

...also....I resent that I keep/kept myself from saying what I want to say.

With my closest friends and my BF I am completely honest.....I don't censor or even think about what I say...and they seem to like me LOL I know some of it is too rough for a lot of people though...so I try to find ways of saying the same thing without "offending anyone".

[kindy64]

If the truth is offensive, say it anyway. Sugar coating it will only give those who want something from you the feeling that you are not closing the door on them. (If I understand your issue correctly.)

[Darius]

As far as I am concerned, the direct approach is best. That doesn't mean being rude or hurtful. You can say no tactfully.

Gifts are like flattery, they usually come with strings attached and you need to not accept them from the get go. When people know you don't buy into their manipulation, they generally respect that. Some will hold a grudge forever. That is their problem.
I think you found out that not dealing directly and honestly with these people when the issue arose that you only caused yourself long term problems. While some people will always be toxic, I think most will accept your candor.
It sounds like you have no in between ground. You either fail to take control of those whom you are not interested in or you and speak your mind and let the chips fall where they may, as with your friends and bf, but nothing in between.

As for the business part, I think I spend a lot of money and that involves dealing with people who sell things. I generally know right away the kind of person I want to deal with. Since I'm honest and coureous, I expect the same from him. If I make an offer, I expect him to politely reject it if that is something he cannot or will not do. If he's an asshole about things, that kills all future dealing with him. Rejecting my offer never does that. I like a challenge

[MikeW]

I'm not totally sure I'm understanding the problem or what you mean by "the line"... Sorry, I'm a bit out of it I confess.

It is a waste of time to argue with some people. Like people who won't take "no" for an answer. If I've said where I'm at and that's that for me, then there really isn't anything more to say. Or, rather, anything more is just a hook back into an potential (if not on-going) not-so-marry-go-round that I want no part of.

As for business dealings, it is complicated because people are so different from one another. What I'e learned is that (mostly) people respect my opinion about things. I used to be a very shy and timid person (and still am in a lot of situations) but I've learned that some people are just clueless about stuff I know a lot about. So, if I see someone (in a business context) making what I think is a mistake, I just tell them, "I don't think that's a good decision," or, "I wouldn't do it that way," or whatever. Then I show them how I'd do it and why I'd do it that way. It seems in my experience that MOST people respect that kind of honesty. Not all of course. Some people just want "yes" men around them, never disagreeing with anything they say or want or do. Like recently in this big on-going job we're dealing with, some of the direction we've been getting is just insane. I'll not even try to go into detail about it. But I've just got to a point where I've said, "NO... we're not going to do it that way. It doesn't make any sense and is just a waste of our time. This is how we're doing it and that's final." LOL... I can get away with that being a gray-beard AND in a situation where, at this point, the drop-dead deadline doesn't really offer them any options. (I know I'm being vague but that's the way it has to be.)

Anyway, why all this second-guessing about your life, your past, how you've done things? What's that all about? We've all done shitty things to people (well, most of us who have lived, anyway). None of us are perfect. Yeah, we can learn from our mistakes but there's a point where I just say, 'well this is how I am and if you don't like it, tough shit.'

*shrug*

[CellarDweller]

unfortunately, there are times when you have to be 'that guy'.

As for someone hating you for this long, sounds more like they're a drama queen who can't let go of a grudge.

[LJay]

East, I have to agree with Mike that it is hard to understand this.

As I get it,

A. You have had guys come on to you that you really did not care for and, even though you said no they persisted and you allowed them to give you gifts and do things for you. After a while, conflict arose and they got upset at you.

B. You often disagree with people and it tears you up. You have trouble when you tell them so very directly and trouble when you bottle your reaction. You don't understand why you have to deal with these people.

Have I got it anywhere near right? Your original post is obviously seriously asking for help, but is hard to understand. Let me know.

[Camfer]

Hmm, a lot to explore here.

Fear of conflict. If you are not invested in someone and things get a little disjointed, your strategy is to run away rather than resolve the issue. Rather than see conflict as an impetus to engage and understand, you see conflict as a futile situation the merits avoidance. This leads the other party to feel more hurt or anger, and that leads you to greater avoidance.

Then, you frame this in two different work situations.

Scenario 1. In the first instance you are the bartender working for someone else. You are supposed to be engaging and flirty and friendly with everyone, regardless of your personal opinion of the guy. And, he's been drinking. You become an object of their desire, and you have to play along to some degree, but the reality is if you weren't at work, you wouldn't have put up with as much as you did. Then when the customer takes it too far, you try to set boundaries and the boundaries are ignored. You give up stating your truth because you know the other guy won't hear it. That leads to frustration on his part and avoidance on your part.

Scenario 2. Guy slams door into your car to cause damage. You avoid the conflict about the door because (a) you felt you deserved it for not communicating better in the past and (b) he's just trying to create drama and pull you back into it so he has your attention again. Smart move to not engage. You made the point that you're not interested in him or his antics. I don't think you owe someone an apology for ignoring your refusals over and over again, and then you not saving him from his assumptions. He wasn't facing the facts, simple as that. His problem, not yours.

Scenario 3. You are now an independent business owner. Someone tries lowballing you on an item, and you allow your annoyance to show. My take is no, you don't owe him an apology unless you really need/want his business back. And really, the whole point of being an independent business owner is so you can fire the customer, something you can't do in most jobs.

It's the 80/20 rule at play. 20% of your customers are going to provide 80% of your revenue. So this lowballer is pretty irrelevant to your business. He's not willing to engage you in a value proposition that you sense is fair. So why bother with him.

I have a farm and we used to sell a lot at farmers markets. I always made it a point to tell my staff that they can fire any customer they want. My staff's dignity and my own dignity is not worth any trivial small sale. Plenty of customers misbehave. We don't put up with it. The gracious ones, we go out of our way to please. That way, our business ends up serving gracious people. That's how we want it.

Thicker skinned people would have already forgotten the whole interaction with the lowballer, where you have to constantly replay it in your mind and assess if you should have done something different.

So part of the problem is your second guessing past events. It's good to look at the patterns in your life, but replaying the same scenario over and over is just mind spin.

Other strategies? Rather than blowing up at people or ignoring them, you could try humor. You could also calmly state that you don't think the interaction is going to be productive, and suggest you part ways.

[Steve]

Honey the most level headed members have already given you some pretty sound advice and quite a bit to ponder as well. Since I'm a full load, off balance, in the spin cycle most days, the only assistance I can offer has to be couched firmly in my own experience. Take it with a boulder of salt. In my case I'll just pop a Lamictal and start to blab.

I can only tell you how I deal with people, from both past and present. That line you're looking for, that happy medium between I should, I shouldn't, I will, I won't, I'll bother, why bother? That line you want to be arbitrary... isn't. It floats from person to person, situation to situation, and to make it worse, the fucker changes position as time goes by.

You can't apologize for having one set line you won't cross for one person, and yet be completely willing to cross the same sort of line for another. People are all different, they all treat you differently, and they mean to you/you mean to them different things. Is it surprising that the lines we would cross for one person we wouldn't think of touching with a ten foot pole for another? It's inconsistent, but largely speaking, so is life. And you only need explain yourself to the people you want to understand. The rest of the fools can think whatever they want. They will anyway.

Most of the time I deal with people/situations as they arise. In doing so I immediately put to rest any unease or second guessing. I've made a decision, its done, and I'm moving on. If I choose to explain it to someone, they mean something to me and I want/need them to understand. Otherwise, welcome to my world, I've said or done what I'm going to do, that's all she wrote and buh-bye now.

I try to ride the center line in terms of fairness. With the way my memory is, I'm usually knee jerk honest about what I'm willing to do, what I'm willing to consider/barter, and what is out of the question. I figure if I use that knee jerk reaction then I'm doing my best in the moment to be consistent in terms of the lengths to which I'll go for someone.

That said, some days are better than others and I'm pretty sure many people regard me as a sort of Sweetart. Which is probably why I'm probably not the best person to dole out behavioral boundary advice. Curiously this reminds me that I've forgotten to medicate.
.

.
The past... I've made it policy to leave it there.

Apologizing for it isn't going to change it. The apology can't absolve me from what can't be changed. I've tried that route. I tried it because as much as I want/need to let the past go, it often trots back in my life and slaps me in the face, or gives me a wet sloppy kiss, or ignores the hell out of me even when history is uncomfortably impossible to miss. When some bit of my past, ugly or not, pops up in my face demanding an audience from the queen, I deal with it. I deal with it as I said above, in the moment. I try to be even tempered and affable, but depending on the situation, my behavior -my line in the sand- is often as inconsistent as the person/people/situation placed in front of me.

It isn't all as easy as I'm making it sound. I suspect even people who hold a rigid line second guess themselves. Hindsight is positively the thing for kicking oneself in the ass. I've said it too often here so I won't belabor the issue much now... I agonize over some flotsam and jetsam in my life. I don't want to, but I don't get the choice. That's why they're called intrusive thoughts. Enough said on that.

In the end I do my best, which is all any of us can do. After all these years I've never found anyone who could truly walk on water, so my best, even if that changes for moment to moment, will have to do.

Don't be too hard on yourself B. Living is hard enough as is.
My sign off is just for you.
xx