Where do you draw the line?

[Jettalove]

Not sure if this will be any more helpful than what others have already written, but here are my thoughts:

A truth about the human condition: we will NEVER be perfect in communicating with each other. But we can and should try, try, try….while realizing that part of our journey here is to figure out how to live as genuinely as possible….while being true to ourselves as well as others. And that IS a difficult line to balance.

I agree with [MENTION=21461]Steve[/MENTION]. With a million ounces of respect and admiration for you as a human, I think you are being a bit too hard on yourself. All we can do is the best we can. At the end of the day, if you’ve done that, you’ve done it perfectly. I know that sounds cheesy, but it’s true.

Knowing this, we must continually recognize and forgive others and ourselves, because we are all facing the same shit every day.

The past is the past….I’m not going to say leave it there, but rather I’m going to say understand it more…you did the best you could at the time, and therefore, it wasn’t wrong. Who knows…maybe some way you acted back then actually had a positive effect on someone in ways that you can’t and don’t understand. We can’t and don’t know the full picture and impact of everything. Love is a lot like water…it finds a way to seep through cracks and crevices and will always find equilibrium. Trust that and set yourself free.

[azulai]

I noticed a tendency in myself recently and I'm working on it but not being very successful. lol. I tend to overanalyze myself and "punish" myself for ways that I handled things in the past and now in hindsight wish I could have handled them differently. I'm working on letting these thoughts go, change what I can, but move forward. I mention this because it might be something similar to what you are doing yourself.

Maybe accepting the dent in your car is your way of setting an equivalent payment for walking out on the rich guy? Maybe it was a subconscious decision so that you didn't have to deal with talking to him and opening yourself up to his brand of asshole again. Mark it as even and move on?

I don't think you owe him an apology since he probably hasn't done any soul- searching or changed his behavior in all these years as he still obviously holds a grudge. No growth = doesn't deserve your time.

As far as the customer comment, people always want deals and some people are less polished in the way they express themselves. I would rant in your head but outwardly handle it politely since it would reflect on your business.

[East]

WOW you guys.....

I am blown away....really great advice and insights and keys....

I was reading these on my iPhone and I HATE typing on it so I don't...but I have been thinking about it almost non stop as I intend to come to a decision and I started to quote the next post and I had a previous quote I didn't finish so I cannot quote anyone without that damn earlier mistake post I started coming up...so I am hoping this breaks the spell and I get a clear screen again when I quote...or mutli-quote. It is nice that this board saves your work BUT sometimes it impedes posting as well...

I was thinking how amazing this place is. I can think of six times now I have asked for advice about something here...and I have gotten it...and processed whatever it was...and left it behind where it belongs. For instance...the Rohypnol thread and the two guys who I think gave it to me...I never stopped thinking about that..for YEARS..drove me crazy. After that thread...SILENCE...I finally got past it. I am one of those people who really used my therapy and the tools I got so I take the advice I get...and I value it.

...and once again...collectively...I think I have found my answer...and I want to say thank you now in case I get that damn previous message when I try to quote again....either way I want to comment on a lot of stuff so one way or the other I will figure it out...

So...thanks guys ((()))

xoxoxoxo

[Steve]

One way to draw a line in the sand.

[East]

If the truth is offensive, say it anyway. Sugar coating it will only give those who want something from you the feeling that you are not closing the door on them. (If I understand your issue correctly.)

YAY!!! I can quote now...sorry for the delay...

Thanks for your response....

To be honest...I don't really think about it being offensive or not....or even sugar coating it...more like matter of fact....exactly what I think...

For instance...if someone asks me about a guy they like ...I die a little bit....

......this is a glimpse into my brain...

I take a minute to respond..yeah..that is all I have before my mouth just says what it wants to anyway....and that took me years just to get that minute!!!!!!! I never even knew some people think about what they are going to say BEFORE they say it until I was already an adult..never even occurred to me. I had no filter...

Some people thought it was humor...or I was being mean...but the truth is...it is exactly the same whether I am saying something that would be perceived as positive or negative...there is no malice at all in me when I respond...except when I am mad and then I am never alone is wishing I could stop my mouth.....YIKES...

So back to the question about the guy someone is asking me about...

What I WANT to say usually sounds like this in my head....

"Well....you never know what will happen when you open a new door"...and YES..that is TRUE...but maybe not THE TRUTH. The truth has a lot of layers....

...and sometimes...that is exactly what I will say PHEW!....but other times...my mouth just goes in a completely different direction than what I have planned. It hurts my brain to think about what I am going to say anyway...waaaayyyyy too much work for me..I don't know how other people do it....one minute of thinking about it and I am exhausted...

I might hear myself say something else....

...for example...

"...he makes my skin crawl"

"...he is owing the part of you that you don't own...you better fix that or you will end up in hell on earth"

...and it just gets worse....

Then I start beating myself up....WHY WHY WHY can't you keep your fucking mouth shut???? That is why I love the Internet. I often type out exactly what I am thinking...and then I use the EDIT button

[East]

As far as I am concerned, the direct approach is best. That doesn't mean being rude or hurtful. You can say no tactfully.

Thanks for your response! I appreciate it.

I agree about saying no tactfully...and I am good at it....really good at it...but only for a short time. There is no problem with that aspect of it...face to face...in business...I am fine with it. I get mad when someone thinks that pestering me for an hour will change my mind...but that personality type is not so common as to paint everyone with the same brush. I also have a problem with someone who uses guilt or shame or telling me what everyone else is doing as a means to get what they want. I shut them down immediately though and they usually back off....I don't bark but I DO bite...and most people "GET IT". I have taken an item silently and smashed it on the ground in front of the person who abuses that ...not a word...and I walk away. I just want them to STFU and whatever piece of merchandise I have..within reason...I will break just to get them to shut up and leave me alone.

It is the same with men and sex when I wasn't working behind the bar...I was overly blunt on purpose with the intention of letting them know EXACTLY what was happening so there are no gray areas.

The problem was...in a bar...I have a job to do and it is beneficial to the bar and me to have people like me enough to be my regular customers..and I had a ton of them...the problem was when they decided they wanted to build me a picket fence....tactful no longer works and it HAS to in order to do my job...so head in the sand was my favorite escape from a situation that sucked...

Gifts are like flattery, they usually come with strings attached and you need to not accept them from the get go. When people know you don't buy into their manipulation, they generally respect that. Some will hold a grudge forever. That is their problem.
I think you found out that not dealing directly and honestly with these people when the issue arose that you only caused yourself long term problems. While some people will always be toxic, I think most will accept your candor.

When I am not being paid by someone else..I rock it when it comes to being honest about gifts. I actually don't really like physical gifts from anyone and I have trained a few people now to give a donation to one of my favorite charities in my name instead...and it brings a smile to my face and I truly appreciate being heard...

On my time...I have had a few people who gave gifts with a shitload of strings...and that is exactly what I told them when I declined and gave them back.

It sounds like you have no in between ground. You either fail to take control of those whom you are not interested in or you and speak your mind and let the chips fall where they may, as with your friends and bf, but nothing in between.

BINGO!!!!! My cherished one minute of thinking before I open my mouth is my "in between ground" The bad part though...I beat myself up when I don't say what I want to say,...or when I do say what I want to say...and I am tired of it....I want to be OK with it and move along...

Now that I think about it..this may be THE THING that is bothering me the most...wanting to find a way to be OK with this and stop beating myself up....AND getting to the point where I don't just ignore someone...

As for the business part, I think I spend a lot of money and that involves dealing with people who sell things. I generally know right away the kind of person I want to deal with. Since I'm honest and coureous, I expect the same from him. If I make an offer, I expect him to politely reject it if that is something he cannot or will not do. If he's an asshole about things, that kills all future dealing with him. Rejecting my offer never does that. I like a challenge

I am actually quite easy to deal with if someone is in the ballpark or gives me a fair offer. I take offers all the time. I do have personality clashes with the types I mentioned above...but then there is one more type that kind of shuts me down. The ones who think I am stupid. I look at them and wonder if they ever even bother to size up the person in front of them? One of my favorite things to do is see the whole picture and analyze as many things as possible ...quickly...I am very good at it...but I do NOT want to engage these types of people...just not interested...and THAT is what I get on the internet mostly...

Their questions to me assume so much....and they obviously think I am an idiot. I just ignore them..and I want to figure out a way to get past it. They are my new Achilles Heel. I know what I WANT to say to them...but I also know to NEVER GO THERE!!!!! It is opening a Pandora's Box for me.

[East]

I'm not totally sure I'm understanding the problem or what you mean by "the line"... Sorry, I'm a bit out of it I confess.

You are not at all out of it. What I dfdn't realize when I wrote this was the problem is a lot more complex AND a lot easier...than I ever imagined. As I proceeded to both think about and attempt to practice some of the advice...it led to another door...and another...

My apologies for the delay in response..I was overwhelmed (and also very busy with my business)

It is a waste of time to argue with some people. Like people who won't take "no" for an answer. If I've said where I'm at and that's that for me, then there really isn't anything more to say. Or, rather, anything more is just a hook back into an potential (if not on-going) not-so-marry-go-round that I want no part of.

One of my favorite and most useful tools in life is knowing when to pick my battles..and do it carefully. I used to be like you describe here..before I became what I am now....

The place I have been in for a long time now..I decide on my own that they can't take no for an answer...or they won't understand..so why bother even saying anything...and that has become a problem...

As for business dealings, it is complicated because people are so different from one another. What I'e learned is that (mostly) people respect my opinion about things. I used to be a very shy and timid person (and still am in a lot of situations) but I've learned that some people are just clueless about stuff I know a lot about. So, if I see someone (in a business context) making what I think is a mistake, I just tell them, "I don't think that's a good decision," or, "I wouldn't do it that way," or whatever. Then I show them how I'd do it and why I'd do it that way. It seems in my experience that MOST people respect that kind of honesty. Not all of course. Some people just want "yes" men around them, never disagreeing with anything they say or want or do. Like recently in this big on-going job we're dealing with, some of the direction we've been getting is just insane. I'll not even try to go into detail about it. But I've just got to a point where I've said, "NO... we're not going to do it that way. It doesn't make any sense and is just a waste of our time. This is how we're doing it and that's final." LOL... I can get away with that being a gray-beard AND in a situation where, at this point, the drop-dead deadline doesn't really offer them any options. (I know I'm being vague but that's the way it has to be.)

When it really matters...I can easily step up and take control of the direction and course and make myself clear. It is the day to day stuff..and people I really don't want to deal with...that I have a problem with....

Luckily (or maybe not)...getting rich isn't even on my top 50 wish list...so I am able to push away people who I don't want to deal with. I will intentionally lose a guaranteed sale when I know I don't want to deal with someone. I don't care about the loss of income...but I DO care about the loss of personal integrity for me. I want to deal with whatever comes up in a way that is fair to me and to them....which brings me to that damn "line" and where it belongs.....

Anyway, why all this second-guessing about your life, your past, how you've done things? What's that all about? We've all done shitty things to people (well, most of us who have lived, anyway). None of us are perfect. Yeah, we can learn from our mistakes but there's a point where I just say, 'well this is how I am and if you don't like it, tough shit.'

*shrug*

One of the things only the people who really know me know...I have a very specific goal in my life...and I am EXTREMELY determined to accomplish this goal. I am cool with mistakes and even most of the shitty things I have done as long as I own them and call them what they are...but not so cool with not being true to myself.....and for me..not saying what I think is an ongoing conflict that I want to get past...and I would love to find the line that lets me be true to myself without alienating most of the planet along the way :biggrin:

If I am not being true to myself...it will block the path I am on....

I don't mean to be vague. I would probably easily tell you my goal with zero reservation if I ever saw you in person..but I refuse to write it on the internet or anywhere else

Thank you for your response Mike..I appreciate it ((()))

[East]

unfortunately, there are times when you have to be 'that guy'.

As for someone hating you for this long, sounds more like they're a drama queen who can't let go of a grudge.

Thanks for your response Cellar.....

I think the problem I have at the moment and in relation to being "that guy" comes from the price I paid for it along the way...SOOOO many times....

....from the time I told the guy who thought we were in love that they only reason we fucked all night in 1000 different positions was because I wasn't turned on to him enough to cum (he thought it was because we were "in love"...and he threw the ashtray at me.)..to the mass murderer I worked with who looked like the typical TV father and I went crazy on him because he made my skin scrawl and made me physically ill being around him..and I told him to stay the fuck away from me because he gave me the creeps real bad and I was STUPIDLY warning everyone else to stay away from him and everyone was teasing me about it until the day he turned up on the front page of the paper and was hauled away....

It happened here once too...I had to leave the site because to it. The creepy "love affair" between two members here that made me want to barf everytime I came here...but I only told a few people when I left why...privately... and then I beat myself up about being judgemental...UNTIL... I got an email about "the event" that was to follow a few months after I left as I had stopped coming here...

As it turns out....I was 100% right to be creeped out and judgemental...and truthfully..I was shocked that I was the only one that I know about who was....and that is actually another aspect of this that has unfolded to make it a little easier ...and harder..to resolve...

[East]

East, I have to agree with Mike that it is hard to understand this.

As I get it,

A. You have had guys come on to you that you really did not care for and, even though you said no they persisted and you allowed them to give you gifts and do things for you. After a while, conflict arose and they got upset at you.

B. You often disagree with people and it tears you up. You have trouble when you tell them so very directly and trouble when you bottle your reaction. You don't understand why you have to deal with these people.

Have I got it anywhere near right? Your original post is obviously seriously asking for help, but is hard to understand. Let me know.

Hey LJay..thank for the response...sorry for the delay....

I heavily edited my original post because it was way too long and I am not even sure it would have made it any clearer..maybe even more confusing. The reason..alot of times my real issue isn't at all what I think it is...and that may be the case here....this is just a symptom of a bigger problem....but still something I want to get past..sooner than later would be good.

The first part...it wasn't that I didn't even care for them......it was more the situation I was in. Looking back...I made a lot of mistakes with my mouth and I started second guessing and censoring myself 'til I almost forgot who I was. I remember thinking it was hard for me to even recognize myself sometimes...and I got trapped inside of a persona instead I think which is kinda part of the job if you are any good at it. The only good part of it was despite the circumstances...I was still the architect of my own prison which I think might be the key out of it....

The second part is the real problem for me now...and since I wrote this I have pretty much forced myself into a change. I have only ignored two potential customers (this is stellar for me!)...I wanted to ignore maybe twelve other ones but I answered them anyway with courtesy and no trace of any attitude...still want to find the line though so I am more comfortable with my decision and I would like to move forward without the constant pesky beating myself up about everything bullshit. I am very tired of it and it is taking up too much of my energy....

[East]

Hmm, a lot to explore here.

Fear of conflict. If you are not invested in someone and things get a little disjointed, your strategy is to run away rather than resolve the issue. Rather than see conflict as an impetus to engage and understand, you see conflict as a futile situation the merits avoidance. This leads the other party to feel more hurt or anger, and that leads you to greater avoidance.

YES......

That sums it up very nicely. It is hard for me to really grasp a lot because when I am close to someone ...I will wrestle the devil for them...seriously... and I will be the bad guy if that is what it takes to help them...and that is who I think I am..how I see myself...until I am faced with the other part of me....when I think telling the truth will cost me too much and it is not worth it....

I think it might have something to do with the worst stalker I had and letting loose on him...which caused me to become afraid of him for way too many years. I would go over and over it and torture myself thinking what I could have done differently..he was a fucking creep....and the single thing I could have done was to keep my mouth shut...

I took action...and he had serious (well deserved) consequences because of me turning him in. If I had to do it all over again..not sure I would have said anything....

Then, you frame this in two different work situations.

Scenario 1. In the first instance you are the bartender working for someone else. You are supposed to be engaging and flirty and friendly with everyone, regardless of your personal opinion of the guy. And, he's been drinking. You become an object of their desire, and you have to play along to some degree, but the reality is if you weren't at work, you wouldn't have put up with as much as you did. Then when the customer takes it too far, you try to set boundaries and the boundaries are ignored. You give up stating your truth because you know the other guy won't hear it. That leads to frustration on his part and avoidance on your part.

WOW...when I first read this I wondered if you read my mind. I had actually said this in different words but edited it out because my initial post was too long. You describe this perfectly...and this is exactly how I felt and why I did what I did..the circumstances were the culprit and in that context..my hands (and tongue) were both kinda tied..not much I could do about it but still very frustrating because when I was not behind the bar...I was extremely honest with any potential partner...

Scenario 2. Guy slams door into your car to cause damage. You avoid the conflict about the door because (a) you felt you deserved it for not communicating better in the past and (b) he's just trying to create drama and pull you back into it so he has your attention again. Smart move to not engage. You made the point that you're not interested in him or his antics. I don't think you owe someone an apology for ignoring your refusals over and over again, and then you not saving him from his assumptions. He wasn't facing the facts, simple as that. His problem, not yours.

THANK YOU CAMFER ! What you said pretty much instantly resolved this one incident for me...and after considering what you said..I agree...I don't owe him an apology and I am gonna file it away permanently...not going to entertain another thought about the incident..or him. Thanks again..I love solutions....

Scenario 3. You are now an independent business owner. Someone tries lowballing you on an item, and you allow your annoyance to show. My take is no, you don't owe him an apology unless you really need/want his business back. And really, the whole point of being an independent business owner is so you can fire the customer, something you can't do in most jobs.

It's the 80/20 rule at play. 20% of your customers are going to provide 80% of your revenue. So this lowballer is pretty irrelevant to your business. He's not willing to engage you in a value proposition that you sense is fair. So why bother with him.

I have a farm and we used to sell a lot at farmers markets. I always made it a point to tell my staff that they can fire any customer they want. My staff's dignity and my own dignity is not worth any trivial small sale. Plenty of customers misbehave. We don't put up with it. The gracious ones, we go out of our way to please. That way, our business ends up serving gracious people. That's how we want it.

^^^THIS^^^ I have been thinking about this everyday since I first read it...and I like it a lot. I might adopt some of your philosophy...I think it might help me draw that line..and understand why it is where it is....it is still sinking in and I am exploring it...I have discussed it with my BF in a lot of detail in the past couple of weeks....

Thicker skinned people would have already forgotten the whole interaction with the lowballer, where you have to constantly replay it in your mind and assess if you should have done something different.

So part of the problem is your second guessing past events. It's good to look at the patterns in your life, but replaying the same scenario over and over is just mind spin.

Other strategies? Rather than blowing up at people or ignoring them, you could try humor. You could also calmly state that you don't think the interaction is going to be productive, and suggest you part ways.

I think the pattern is my Dad's voice in my head...of second guessing and beating myself up. I probably need to find someone to help me past that. I got help with the major stuff and the tools I got I still use...successfully...but this is the (relatively) minor stuff I never bothered to bring up.

My humor...uh...gets me in trouble these days...but it used to work pretty good so I know how to go about it anyway....

One of the ways I could bartend in a gay bar for so many years (tough crowd!)...I had personas I developed who could get away with saying the things I really wanted to say...and I know the value of using humor...but my humor is outdated ....I could never get away with it now...good thought though :biggrin: ...

Hey..thanks for the input and advice!...I am still thinking about it..especially the business model...I really love it...