Feeling lonely

[nm1012]

I don't like complaining, especially since I know my life could be much worse than it is. I have good friends, great academic prospects, etc. However, I've been trying my hardest to find a guy and have never had luck.

I've hooked up with guys and gone on dates, but I'm either not attracted to the guy at all or the conversation is very poor. I know I have good qualities to offer, but I also feel like there must be something inherently wrong with me if I have never been in a relationship...

Just wanted to see if anyone else has felt similar or if you have any advice about meeting people. I've mostly done online stuff, as there aren't many other options to meet gay guys from where I'm from.

[Insertnamehere]

Join the club.



That's about as much help as I can be.

[MikeW]

... but I also feel like there must be something inherently wrong with me if I have never been in a relationship...

Ummm... how old are you? And as you say, WHERE are you (not asking you to answer publicly either of those questions...). If you're gay and under 40 and haven't been in a long term relationship (less than 5 years), that's probably close to "the norm". This is especially true if you don't live in a major metropolitan area.

Finding someone you click with sexually and personality wise is NOT easy. It also depends to some extent how "picky" you are. The longer the list of attributes your potential partner has to fill, the harder he is to come by.

What we (gay men) need are real life "mixers". Social events that are a) not clubs, bars or other 'pick-up' venues and ARE b) geared toward giving men opportunities to meet and get to know one another.

Here where I live there are two gay social organizations that fit that bill. It was through them that I found both my (now deceased) LTR partners. In the course of that I met literally HUNDREDS of gay men. Many of them I became friends with. A few were sex partners. But only two became lovers and LTRs.

Just saying, don't use your situation as ammunition against yourself. That's a loose-loose from the get-go.

[LJay]

Good point, Mike. Though it is very hard to meet folks in general when you get past your younger years.

But, to go with your suggestion. One might consider any number of situations to be mixers. You may have to sort out the gay guys but there are choirs, church functions, civic groups, service clubs like Kiwanis, Lions, etc., volunteer situations, and I keep hearing that the produce section of the grocery store is a prime location. OH, those avocados!

[MikeW]

[MENTION=19753]nm1012[/MENTION] We've had a couple private messages back and forth but I want to take this public. Perhaps others who are in similar situations can benefit from this discussion...

Yeah. Trust me, I do understand "trying my hardest and nothing seems to be working."

What I recommend for guys your age (under 28) is to not think about "partnering." I know, I know, you want it... or think you do (LOL!!). But, frankly, I feel a lot of that comes from growing up in a heteronormative society where het guys and girls are supposed to want to find a spouse, settle down, and nest. The whole of society is set up for them to do exactly that.

But are we like them? I don't think so. In any case society isn't (yet) set up FOR US to do what they do. This is one of the hard things to grasp, much less accept, about being gay.

Relationships are NOT easy. They aren't fantasy worlds where two people meet, fall in love, get married, and live happily ever after. <<< That is the heteronormative MYTH that isn't even heterosexual reality (let alone homosexual reality). I say this because all you have to do is look at how many het marriages end up in divorce.... not to mention how difficult it is for gay men to sustain a relationship beyond the 7 year mark. MOST fall WAY short of that.

So what is going on here?

The reality is that sustaining a relationship through years of time requires a level of maturity that MOST young people (of any orientation) simply lack. Het couples who end up getting hitched young HAVE family and social support systems in place. It is *expected* of them and everyone plays their role in the game.

Gay guys are outsiders from the get-go. We're outside the hetero "norm". Although we *can* create families with children, they are NOT a more or less foregone conclusion the way heterosexual marriages *usually* are. We are NOT breeders. Yeah, sure, we can adopt... but that isn't easy either and most gay couples don't go there.

Gay men have to deal with a whole host of UNIQUE (to us) issues. For example: Despite almost half a century of feminism, men and women still have more or less accepted ROLES that they play in a family dynamic: Mommy and Daddy. Gay male relationships do NOT have this kind of role dynamics, and especially don't have it in terms of child rearing.

So what we do have are two males who (usually) have been "programmed" (more or less) to be strong, assertive *individuals* who are OFTEN quite (if not totally) out of touch with their genuine feelings. <<< This is huge issue. If you don't know what your genuine feelings are, then you don't know your own truth. And if you don't know your own truth, then you're operating in a "fantasy" world... a sociological "mythical" world that has nothing to do with real life.

Real life is NOT finding someone you find sexually attractive, falling in love and living happily ever after. Real life is finding someone you find sexually attractive, falling in love, and then discovering how DIFFICULT it is to sustain a real, long lasting, mutually supportive, relationship in the face of a heteronormative social environment that, until recently, DENIED that we could even MARRY. <<< That we legally now can does NOT change the sociological conditions within which we grew up and within which we will live as adult gay men (married or not).

I want to post this and I have more to say.... (to be continued).

[MikeW]

I find it very difficult to express what I'm thinking clearly. I'm trying my best. But one of the problems is, no matter what I say, there are always "exceptions" to any general rule. YES.. there are gay men who meet one another as teenagers, fall in love, and DO, in fact, live more or less happily ever after. (There is one such member of this forum although he seldom posts.) BUT and this is an important BUT... relationships such as these are EXCEPTIONS... NOT the rule.

It is NOT the rule that most gay men meet a partner in their early 20s, settle down, and continue to have a healthy, evolving relationship for the remainder of their lives. Does it happen? Sure it does! But what... I have no idea... 1 in 1,000 ... 1 in 10,000??? Could you just get lucky? Sure, you could. But is LUCK what you want to base your life on? BECAUSE the reality is MOST OF YOU GAY YOUNG MEN READING THIS are NOT going to be lucky. <<< That is a statistical fact.

So we're back to this "loneliness" issue. <<< It is a huge and important issue.

Is "curing" or "getting rid of" my "loneliness" a SUFFICIENT *reason* (let alone motivation) TO FIND A PARTNER?

I'm presenting that it is not. I'm an old man who has had two LTRs and have STILL spent the last decade and a half not only ALONE but CELIBATE. And what I want to add here rather quickly, least I start getting all kinds of sympathy greetings from the peanut gallery, THIS IS LARGELY BY CHOICE! I'm not going to go off on a tangent about it, about me, my life choices and why I make them... but the point is, I do make them. I am alone because I choose to be. It is what I want. To me... that "hole in the soul" loneliness, that wish to have that certain someone special in one's life... To share all the joys and sorrows and etc. <<< All that, to me, is kind of "been there, done that." Yeah, sure, I could do it again if the right man just happened to come along. But I'm sure as hell not going to waist ANY time "looking" for him or "trying" desperately to make it happen. I KNOW BETTER.

I'm talking about me. I know better for myself. I'm not saying ANYTHING about the OP or anyone else. Everyone has to find his own way in the world. Everyone has to take responsibility for his own happiness. Everyone needs to understand that we can NOT let our happiness be dependent upon someone else -- AND ESPECIALLY not some "mythical" Mr. Right or Mr. Perfect. What happens if we never find him? Well, if our happiness depends on finding him, we're going to be pretty miserable, right?

So my point is, the very first thing a gay man has to do as he grows into an adult is find some way of becoming a happy, healthy, well adjusted man... EVEN IF he is alone in the world. This does NOT mean that he has to accept "loneliness". That aching feeling of needing someone. What it DOES mean is that he needs to look at this feeling... this glimmer of true feeling within himself... and come to terms with it. In a very real sense we have to learn to LOVE OURSELVES ... not in some egotistical "my shit don't stink" way ... but in a more subtle, "I'm alright. Life is good. It is what it is and I'm ok with that," way. <<< That is maturity.

When a gay man has established for himself a life WORH SHARING the chances of him meeting a man WITH WHOM HE CAN SHARE IT... are tremendously enhanced. Moreover, a mature man who is ok within himself is not going to bring anywhere NEAR as much childhood baggage into a relationship as someone who is NOT ok within himself. If and when he meets the man of his dreams ... a man he can respect and who can respect him ... there is a very good chance they'll be able to make it work.

Still, there are no guarantees. I don't care if your lover tells you he will love you forever and ever. I don't care if you do get married. I don't care if you do wear a wedding ring. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES. Unless you know yourself really, really well... unless your partner knows himself really, really well ... unless BOTH of you are clear and honest in your communication with one another ... chances are very high that one or the other of you are going to fuck up big time. And THEN what are you going to do?

We already have one divorce brewing right here on this forum. And, damn. It is unhappy. Its sad. It's kind of horrifying, really. WTF happened? Who the hell can figure it out? How is it that two men can love one another and then, somehow, some way, end up on the opposite side of a fence, hell a wall, so tall, so hard, so vast that there is NO way around, under or through it? How the hell is it that we are fine for years and years and then, little by little, we go insane... we loose interest in the other... we get tired of them and their constant _____________ fill in the blank.

Hell, that's not even to mention the possibility of illness or death. I know a gay man who lives with his partner because he loves him... but his partner is sick with cancer, has no interest in sex, is crazy and demanding.... but this guy... this wonderful man... he has stuck with his partner. They're not even legally married. But he takes the "in sickness and in health and till death do us part" SERIOUSLY!!! And, no, he hasn't remained monogamous. He DOES have sex outside the relationship. But so what? He is THERE for his man... there in a way NO ONE ELSE ON THIS EARTH could be or will be.

This is what I'm talking about. A *real* relationship ... not some fantasy ... is about people dealing with their struggles and NOT abandoning one another. REAL relationships have a level of self-sacrifice in them that MOST men (gay or otherwise) find UNcomfortable.

This is the truth as I see it.

So.. this is why I say, if you're under 28 years old, chances are, you simply are not READY for a genuine relationship... I don't care how lonely you are. In fact, to me, the very fact that you are dwelling on your loneliness suggests to me that you're self-absorbed and NOT READY to LOVE someone else more than you do yourself.

OP, please don't take offense. That isn't addressed at you... it is addressed to all of us here who struggle with these feelings, these senses of insecurity, these questions of how to make life work for us...

These are huge issues, huge questions. They are life issues, life questions. And it sometimes takes years to come to terms with them.

Yeah, sure, there are exceptions. They are exceptions. We should not base our lives on becoming a lucky exception. We should base our lives on trying to live fully in the moment the truth that we are. The closer we come to that naked truth inside ourselves, the more human, the more open, the more truly AVAILABLE we become as men. And it is only *available* men that one CAN have a real, lasting relationship with.

/End of Mr. Mike's rant on this subject.

[LJay]

Mike, it may help folks to realize the truth of your statement that few guys stay together past the seven year mark to think of the number of FRIENDS that stay friends for that long. These days, even friendships seem to be disposable or at least to be considered as non-commital.

[MikeW]

... But, to go with your suggestion. One might consider any number of situations to be mixers. You may have to sort out the gay guys but there are choirs, church functions, civic groups, service clubs like Kiwanis, Lions, etc., volunteer situations, and I keep hearing that the produce section of the grocery store is a prime location. OH, those avocados!...

Well, what you're talking about are HETERONORMATIVE social opportunities where gay men MIGHT POSSIBLY meet. It is totally hit or miss.

That isn't what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about are NON PROFIT social organizations that are RUN FOR AND BY GAY MEN for the PURPOSE of building COMMUNITY and RELATIONSHIP.

IF there were any enterprising young, socially oriented gay men out there in the world who WANTED to create a NATIONAL not-for=profit organization to MEET this need... It could be a true career opportunity. It could even become a genuine political force within the (so called) "gay community."

I've been thinking about this for decades. I'm NOT the guy to do it. I don't have the patience or the stick-with-it-ness, not to mention the bureaucratic and organizational skills necessary to build and run a large non-profit.

But that's what we need.

We need to have this. Someone needs to build it. Someone needs to design it to work. Someone needs to find a way to fund it (non-profit). Someone needs to find a way to make it grow so that it becomes available everywhere in this country. Someone needs to create a social model that can be copied and tweaked to fit other countries, other cultures.

I wish some forth-right young man or woman would grasp what this is all about and just fucking run with it.

The two local organizations I'm speaking of are "The Pacific Center" and "The Discovery Community."

Back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, I was a volunteer facilitator at Pacific Center. This non-profit was basically centered around a individual and group (psychology) therapy model. The idea was to create a "safe" environment for gay men and women to get inexpensive (and sometimes free) peer-to-peer counseling services. They did this by creating "group nights" that met the needs of certain demographics. For example, there was a gay men's group night, a married men's group night, a lesbian group night, etc. Each of these "nights" had facilitators available to lead discussions between men who were dealing with issues of that demographic.

The problem was, with few exceptions, these groups were not on-going. So one of the facilitators, a young man named Adam, decided to branch off from Pacific Center and begin offering weekend-long retreat experiences for gay men. This was the beginning of The Discovery Community. The DC has now been functioning on an ALL VOLUNTEER basis for over 25 year! That's quite amazing when you think about it. [Edit to add: Pacific Center has been around since the 1970s, not sure of the exact date, but, although it is a non-profit, it does have a small paid staff to administer the programs.]

Out of The DC we also developed a "Couples Group". That is, there were 9 couples who frequented Discovery retreats who began meeting together every three weeks to discuss the issues related to being in a committed homosexual relationship. I and my first partner, David, were in that group until his death in February of 1997. The point being that that GROUP of gay couples EXISTED longer than MOST gay relationships.

I hope you begin to understand [MENTION=20933]LJay[/MENTION] how totally DIFFERENT what I'm talking about is from the hit-or-miss heteronormative social environment. I'm leaving out tons of details here about how all this worked but suffice it to say that these organizations were geared specifically to gay people. And, although "mixing" and helping men find one another was NOT the soul, or even primary, function of either of these organizations, that IS what happened within their context. Quite frequently, actually.

[MikeW]

Mike, it may help folks to realize the truth of your statement that few guys stay together past the seven year mark to think of the number of FRIENDS that stay friends for that long. These days, even friendships seem to be disposable or at least to be considered as non-commital.

Exactly.

Meanwhile, my parents -- people from a whole other era -- lived to see their SEVENTY FIFTH wedding anniversary.

This is a HUGE issue, guys. Seriously, we've all become SO independent, SO "comfort" (not to mention instant gratification) focused... it AMAZES me how many young gay men SAY they WANT a relationship.

I hear it over and over and over again on this and other forums. BUT... although it does happen... it doesn't happen for everyone... And quite frequently even when it DOES happen, it doesn't last BECAUSE THE GUYS HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT THEY'RE GETTING THEMSELVES INTO OR WHY.

Not to mention no "staying power" when the going gets rough. Which it almost ALWAYS does.

Sorry I'm ranting again :\

[LJay]

Well, yes, Mike, i see what you are saying now that you have clarified it, though, without in any way trying to be argumentative, I point out that you live in Berkeley.

Even though I am fairly lucky to live in a fairly tolerant town, especially since it is the capitol of the Old South and has the deepest of underpinnings in the Confederacy, it is not easy to meet others, nor do the sort of organizations you mention exist. Would that they did.

You have many, many very good points about the current state of the culture of both gays and others. Don't get me wrong. I agree with you.

In the meantime, I really should stop checking in on the board before going to sleep.

G'night!

And may your avocados be bright.