Feeling lonely

[MikeW]

Well, yes, Mike, i see what you are saying now that you have clarified it, though, without in any way trying to be argumentative, I point out that you live in Berkeley....

Well, yes, that's kind of the point. This sort of thing is available here in the San Francisco Bay Area. But why doesn't it exist other places? Anyone who wanted to could do it anywhere in the country.

Back in the day I tried to get Discovery Board of Directors to consider creating an educational package that would reach out to gay men in other regions interested in community development. The idea was to share with them what we were doing and how we were doing it and offer some support for them to return to their communities and develop similar (if not identical) "satellite" organizations.

No one wanted to take it on and I couldn't do it as I had my own commitments.

So what's been needed all along (as I see it) is some enterprising young person who WANTS to build community. SOME of the foundation work has already been done and COULD be shared. It really isn't THAT difficult.

Pretty much anyone can organize a gay men's weekend retreat.

If anyone wants some general information about how the Discovery Retreats were originally put together, I'd be happy to share that information. For detailed explanation of the nuts and bolts, they'd need to contact DC directly.

[kindy64]

Wow Mike, you ought to write a relationship book for gay guys... Interesting ideas about a national gay social networking association.

Something I've seen over, and over in the hetero world is the women who wanted a man to marry the most had the worst luck. They gals who lived there lives had guys who wanted them. So, that piece of advice is important, live your life for yourself first.

[MikeW]

Private Message posted publicly with the OP's permission:

Thanks for the detailed response on the forum. I agree, it is harder for gay men to find long lasting relationships and that it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

However, you have been in two major relationships and I'm assuming other little flings here and there. I may be young, but I've had none of that while both straight AND gay people around have. I'm not searching for my life partner; I'm searching for someone to see even what a relationship entails. I'm a lot stronger that I know I'd be fine in the end if it didn't work out - I've been through way harder experiences in my life already.

So I appreciate your advice, but I'm sorry because it's not going to stop me from feeling how I feel...

My emphasis and my reply:

Oh man, don't be sorry. OF COURSE nothing I say is going to change how you feel! The only person who can change how you feel is you. But there's nothing "wrong" with feeling lonely, not to mention horny as fuck (which most young gay guys do). You're craving something and you're not sure how to "get it".

Let's go back to your OP where you say:

I've hooked up with guys and gone on dates, but I'm either not attracted to the guy at all or the conversation is very poor. I know I have good qualities to offer, but I also feel like there must be something inherently wrong with me if I have never been in a relationship...

Ok so first of all I don't know you. I only know what you've told me, where you live, how old you are, what you're studying... and what you're struggling with as above. Yes, you are young (under 25), and have a whole lifetime of experiences in front of you. INCLUDING the very thing you're craving.... direct experience in the "relationship" department. I have no idea when or how that's going to show up, I only know that it will. It's almost inevitable.

But what you're asking for, so far as I understand it, is advice... so lets dig into what I've quoted above... As I understand it

• You have hooked up with a few guys
  
• You have gone on a few dates
  
• However, these don't turn out as you'd like because a) either you're not really attracted to the guy or b) conversation is poor
  
• You know you have good qualities BUT
  
• You feel there must be something inherently wrong with you
  
• Because you've never been in a relationship
  

I want to address the last part first because I think (could be totally wrong about all this and I know it) it is the most important.

You do understand that feeling there must be something inherently wrong with you because you've never been in a relationship, especially at your age, is IRRATIONAL, right? Not logical? So... this feeling, this sense of something wrong, is PSYCHOLOGICAL. You're doubting yourself, doubting your ability to have or be in a relationship.

Alright, well, can you be more objective? ARE THERE "reasons" why? "Reasons" that you can actually DO something about and "fix" in some way? There are some things you can't fix, right? You can't "fix" the fact you're still in your early 20s. That isn't a problem, its just you are still quite young and relatively inexperienced in worldly things. No big deal. There's also the fact that you don't live in a big city. There are other gay guys around you but, so far at least, you haven't found one you "click" with sexually or personality wise. Objectively, these facts don't have anything to do with something being "wrong" with you, right? They're just the way things are.

BUT... and this is what I want to focus on because I see it SO MUCH in gay youth... you FEAR there might be something inherently, FUNDAMENTALLY, wrong with you. This is what I want you to look at. Get into. Explore. Find out about. Understand. Come to terms with.

IS there something *fundamentally* "wrong" with YOU?

I have no idea. We've never met. Maybe, despite your youth, you look more like Emperor Palpatine on a good day...



...And are an EVIL, maniacal, self-centered, manipulative SOB, who delights in killing little forest creatures and roasting babies alive, and whose sole agenda in life is to make everyone else as miserable as he is.

Could be. [MENTION=21000]verysimple[/MENTION] "ANYTHING is possible," right?

But, since that isn't highly likely, I have to ask: WHAT *could be* inherently, FUNDAMENTALLY "wrong" with YOU? “Fundamentally” is deep. Not something superficial. Not something easily changed, even if you wanted to change it.

How is it that you doubt yourself? What are you afraid of about yourself? That is to say, what do you FEAR *may* be true about you?

Just to be clear, I ask questions like this not because I want you to spill your guts here in a public forum. I'm asking you to THINK about this. Seriously. You've begun to tie yourself up in a knot here, right? You've begun to feel uncomfortable about yourself... and in a way, perhaps. blame yourself for something. Well, but why are you doing that? What's the point of that? Either there IS something "wrong" with you -- something you need to look at and change about yourself if you can -- or there isn't.

We've talked about this in this forum before to some extent. To what extent should I "change myself" to be "attractive" or "appealing" to someone else, especially a potential boy friend?

I think the general consensus is that, although this is something to consider, we need to look at it from the POV of what is "right" for us. For example, if I'm overweight and I'm mostly attracted to physically fit guys who aren't interested in "fat" guys... well... I have to ask myself... can I, am I willing to, change? And if I do, if I don't do it FOR MYSELF, for my own health and sense of self worth and so on... then chances are likely that at some point I'll slip back into my old habits. Chances are (in this example) I'm not going to STAY lean and mean. At some point, I'll fall off the wagon and go back to the same flabby physical state I was in before.

So that's just an example. It could be anything. Maybe the way I judge other people as not being good enough or interesting enough. Maybe I have too long a list of attributes that someone I’m dating has to match up with for me to get turned on by or interested in them. Do I want to look at that? Change that? Or do I want to accept that that's the way I am? I have a right to have what I want and nothing less?

To me, what it all boils down to is this:

If I know my own truth, what is true for me, what I want, and I ACCEPT this truth about myself, this puts me in a state of mind which is NOT “self-doubt”.

When I’m in a state of “self-doubt” I “project” that out into the world. This makes it more difficult for me to “find” or “connect” with other guys. To some extent, I’m not “available” to “connect” with them because I’m feeling unsure of myself in some way. I'm always "holding back" for some reason.

Does that make sense?

OTOH, if I’m feeling self-confident, if I feel OK with myself as I am (more ore less), then that isn’t happening in me. I feel fine meeting someone, going out on a date. So what if we don’t “hook up” or even get on very well? At least I put myself out there and made the effort to find someone and try. I know that its just a matter of time, a matter of circumstances, to an extent, just a matter of “dumb luck” as to when, where, how and who I meet. I don’t “worry” about it and I don’t “obsess” about it.

Does any of this make sense?

DO you have issues you need to deal with around potential relationships, even relations that are less that “life partner” status? If so, what are they? How do you relate to them? Are they problems to be solved or fixed? Do you want to? How do you focus on that? Do I need to talk with a counselor or therapist? Or do I just need to chill out??

OR>.. is all this just too many words, TL;DR, too much thought, too much thinking and not enough just BEING and letting shit happen?

Do I just need to say, FUCK IT, I’m going to enjoy my youth!! I’m going to have a blast doing what I do!! I'm going to have all the fun I can stand! I’m not going to envy my friends for what they have and I don’t. I’m just going to go with the flow and live my life day to day, open to new experiences and possibilities? Open to meeting new guys and seeing them for who they are.

Your life is in your hands, dude. No one else can make it better than you do. Not even a BF can do that. Oh, yeah, for sure, for the first few weeks or months… it is all new and exciting and hot and whatever. But beyond that, its really what you (and he) make of it because we ALL come with a certain amount of baggage. That’s just life.

The question is what do we really, truly want? AND are we willing to let ourselves have it?

[MikeW]

...so, that piece of advice is important, live your life for yourself first.

q f t !!!
.
.
.

[verysimple]

What [MENTION=20947]MikeW[/MENTION] said is true. Gotta find out what's wrong with you.. You HAVE to get to know yourself before getting to know other people. You have to know what's wrong with you and fix it.. Although, Like what mikey said, I'm sure it is just a Psychological thing and people perceive you differently than you perceive yourself...
Now, You gotta love yourself. Become your own best friend and do things you enjoy to enjoy your company. That way, it won't feel so lonely even if you were alone... Hell, You won't even feel lonely at all or need anyone to have fun with ...

But just don't say there is something "Inherently" wrong. You don't have a BF yet and that's normal.. Thinking that something is wrong with you will actually bring it into existence and you will actually believe that there's something wrong with you while there might be nothing wrong at all..
Do things to make you look good to YOU, dress and look in a way that is satisfying to you cuz in the end it is all YOU who matters and that mr Romeo will come a long the way. Trust me, he will. You just gotta have faith. Good luck!

[morgan]

Finding a decent guy is like... trying to find a needle in the world's biggest haystack.

[azulai]

@MikeW I'm referencing your post on heteronormative behavior.

Note: Mike and I have discussed this as I don't want to be seen as, nor is my intent, combative. We thought it would give others an opportunity to dialogue about it as well.

I’m not sure where my thoughts are going here. It’s just the similar vein of things you and East say about heteronormative behavior. East has talked about the Disney Princess Syndrome. I respect you both and I like that you both challenge me to think.

I’ve seen a variant of East's DPS in RL. There’s this little indy coffee house my bf and I frequent. The gays have our little gay corner of the place with the regulars. lol. Anyway there is this one guy that I want to focus on. He constantly bemoans not being able to find someone. He is always on the lookout. There are things he’s done to make us conclude that he definitely wants to be someone’s wife. I’m not saying that in a demeaning way, but he wants to be — the only way I can say it — a homemaker??? I’m not demeaning it, more the way he goes about things. Extreme things like quitting his job to chase after a D-list Hollywood gay who he hooked up with on Twitter, no less. We’re in the midwest! Of course that didn't work out so he returned to no job. He just bounces from one “relationship” to the next. Every guy he fucks starts out as “the one." So I really see this as a version of the Princess thing where he is looking for a breadwinner. We've experienced the gamut of feelings about him, from creeped out to pity.

But then I look at myself, and I am one of “those” younger guys who is in a relationship. My bf and I started dating in college and neither of us had dated much before…nor took the hookup route. (My bf is four years older than I am.) I’m not sure I agree that I’m being heteronormative, but rather listening to my emotional needs. I don’t see heteronormative as being a bad gay. Not sure I’m making sense. Not saying you think heteronormative is bad, but you do stress that it is just not what younger guys should be looking for. Not sure I agree. Maybe it’s generational? Is it so wrong to want what we saw straight friends have in high school and college? One of the things that still brings a smile to my face is my bf wanting to kiss me at the top of a ferris wheel! lol. It was just that freedom that he saw straights having when he was in high school. It was something so silly but meaningful to him.

I was NEVER interested in the idea of hookups — mainly from seeing straights is high school and college and the resulting disasters but also from the idea of getting STIs. I was the support for one of my close friends (female) who contracted herpes when we were hs juniors. She had a horribly virulent case of HSV-2 and then the emotional impact on her was devastating.

The other thing is I live in the context of a very close family. I have always wanted what my parents have - a close love/friendship, a happy relationship. I saw and still see my parents as youngish and in love and I’ve always seen sex as positive. Part of my struggle with depression/identifying as gay was trying to comprehend the conflict of what I wanted and what society/religion/culture deems acceptable.

My mom and dad have been supportive and loving through everything but my parents also have standards and expectations of how I treat my bf, and how they expect me to be treated. They want to treat my bf and me no differently than how they treat my two younger sisters and their dating lives. I guess what I’m trying to say is a lot of us younger guys are living within the context of supportive families. And just as it takes the time to adjust to a son or daughter being gay, some parents are trying to be supportive the only way they know how, and that is with some heteronormative expectations. My dad has always stressed my responsibility as an older brother, being gay does not remove his expectations of my behavior from me.

Well hopefully I’m making sense. My main issue is how does a younger gay guy, living within the context of a loving and supportive family, not desire/dream of a loving relationship?

[MikeW]

.... Every guy he fucks starts out as “the one." So I really see this as a version of the Princess thing where he is looking for a breadwinner. We've experienced the gamut of feelings about him, from creeped out to pity.

But then I look at myself, and I am one of “those” younger guys who is in a relationship. My bf and I started dating in college and neither of us had dated much before…nor took the hookup route. (My bf is four years older than I am.) I’m not sure I agree that I’m being heteronormative, but rather listening to my emotional needs. I don’t see heteronormative as being a bad gay. Not sure I’m making sense. Not saying you think heteronormative is bad, but you do stress that it is just not what younger guys should be looking for. Not sure I agree. Maybe it’s generational? Is it so wrong to want what we saw straight friends have in high school and college? One of the things that still brings a smile to my face is my bf wanting to kiss me at the top of a ferris wheel! lol. It was just that freedom that he saw straights having when he was in high school. It was something so silly but meaningful to him.

First off, I’m celebrating the solstice this evening and have toked up on some gangly ganja, not to mention the now half-empty glass of wine. Sweet!

I think your example of the guy looking for "the one" is close to what I mean by "heteronormative", yes. It doesn't sound like he's operating "realistically." IOW, he lacks maturity in this realm.

I’ll let [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION] say what he means by Disney Princess Syndrome but, for me, what it has to do with is “unrealistic” expectations. As I said in my reply to [MENTION=19753]nm1012[/MENTION] linked above, “Relationships are NOT easy. They aren't fantasy worlds where two people meet, fall in love, get married, and live happily ever after. <<< That is the heteronormative MYTH that isn't even heterosexual reality (let alone homosexual reality).”

Am I saying its not possible for two young gay guys to meet, fall in love, get married and live happily ever after? No. Of course it is possible. But is it likely? That’s the question. I’m saying its an unrealistic expectation for a lot of young people (gay or straight) because relationships require a level of maturity beyond adolescent day dreaming. You and your boy friend may be mature enough to understand this. Not everyone is so fortunate.

Focusing on the bolded, above, no, of course it isn't wrong to want what you see heterosexual couples having. (I love the ferris wheel example, BTW. SWEET!! ) That's not what I'm talking about.

I was NEVER interested in the idea of hookups — mainly from seeing straights is high school and college and the resulting disasters but also from the idea of getting STIs. I was the support for one of my close friends (female) who contracted herpes when we were hs juniors. She had a horribly virulent case of HSV-2 and then the emotional impact on her was devastating.

STIs aside, I’ve never been much into hook-ups, myself. I’ve had them but the vast majority of my sexual life has been in the context of relationships.

The other thing is I live in the context of a very close family. I have always wanted what my parents have - a close love/friendship, a happy relationship. I saw and still see my parents as youngish and in love and I’ve always seen sex as positive. Part of my struggle with depression/identifying as gay was trying to comprehend the conflict of what I wanted and what society/religion/culture deems acceptable.

Well, this is a very valid point. You have at least two things I didn’t have at your age: 1) a social environment that is increasingly accepting of homosexuality as a “normal” expression of human sexuality and love and 2) a supportive, functional (as opposed to dysfunctional) family environment that has a healthy attitude toward sexuality.

Having a supportive family and having a healthy attitude toward sexuality (of any orientation), is huge. What I’m referring to as “heteronormative” is a mythology. What you’re talking about is your reality.

I can truly understand why you’d want to have the kind of relationship and family that you grew up in. Having the support of your family to help you negotiate the difficult waters of relationship, only makes it that much better.

My mom and dad have been supportive and loving through everything but my parents also have standards and expectations of how I treat my bf, and how they expect me to be treated. They want to treat my bf and me no differently than how they treat my two younger sisters and their dating lives. I guess what I’m trying to say is a lot of us younger guys are living within the context of supportive families. And just as it takes the time to adjust to a son or daughter being gay, some parents are trying to be supportive the only way they know how, and that is with some heteronormative expectations. My dad has always stressed my responsibility as an older brother, being gay does not remove his expectations of my behavior from me.

Well hopefully I’m making sense. My main issue is how does a younger gay guy, living within the context of a loving and supportive family, not desire/dream of a loving relationship?

Sure you're making sense and a valid point. You’re describing a functional family dynamic of which you're apart. This is your reality, not some vague “The Waltons” fantasy.

I grew up in a dysfunctional family in a more repressive age. So, of course, I look at the world through the lenses of my own experience and generation. That said, I’ve also met literally hundreds of gay men both IRL and on forums like this. In my experience – and that’s all it is, may be a completely distorted perspective for all I know – growing up gay in a functional family is the exception, not the rule.

You’re one of the lucky ones. You have good role models for relationship and family building, not to mention their on-going support.

MOST of the guys I interact with and correspond with online are not so lucky. Many of them come from broken homes. One I know has a family history of drug abuse (mother, now deceased) and alcoholism (father, currently incarcerated). Another is dealing with physical and emotional abuse, another emotional challenges. A large percentage of the young gay guys I know are struggling with depression, social anxiety, low-self esteem, and many other personal issues – both directly and indirectly related to their sexuality. Add onto this many are not “out” or, even when they are, feel a lack of social acceptance (if not out-right prejudice), let alone “support”...

You’re absolutely right. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to have a healthy, loving relationship and a family.

What I’m saying is that most of the young gay guys I know are just not ready for that. They lack a support system and have very little self-awareness. They're often so caught up inside their own psychological dynamics, there's very little room for anyone else. But, most importantly, they don’t know themselves, their own truth, much less how to express it in the context of a relationship.

So my advice to them is to not focus on TRYING so hard to make a relationship happen. Rather, I’m suggesting they work on themselves first. The more together I am, the more I understand myself, the more I know what my personal truth is and the better able I am to express it, the more likely I am to find the kind of relationship I need and want. I can't do any of that if I'm chasing after some fantasy of a love life.

[East]

Exactly.

Meanwhile, my parents -- people from a whole other era -- lived to see their SEVENTY FIFTH wedding anniversary.

This is a HUGE issue, guys. Seriously, we've all become SO independent, SO "comfort" (not to mention instant gratification) focused... it AMAZES me how many young gay men SAY they WANT a relationship.

I hear it over and over and over again on this and other forums. BUT... although it does happen... it doesn't happen for everyone... And quite frequently even when it DOES happen, it doesn't last BECAUSE THE GUYS HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT THEY'RE GETTING THEMSELVES INTO OR WHY.

Not to mention no "staying power" when the going gets rough. Which it almost ALWAYS does.

Sorry I'm ranting again :\

Funny thing...I never actually wanted a relationship or looked for one and (OK...dont' shoot me)...the guys back in the 70s and 80s who were always looking for one..uh...let's just say you couldn't breathe around them..they sucked the life right out of everyone around them....and they never understood WHY they weren't with a guy....but everyone else knew..

They would tell themselves it was about the looks..or their body....never considering for a second it was about WHO they were. Most people don't want to get the life sucked out of them...and people who are drenched in self pity do exactly that to everyone around them...

Luckily..there were so few of them that it was easy to avoid them....but today..it seems to be the norm.

Having said that...a few pointers from someone who reluctantly entered a relationship but SUCCESSFUILLY maintained and grew as an individual and as a couple..for 30 years!

1) DON'T LOOK FOR A RELATIONSHIP! It is a bad road to go down....and your head will start playing games with you and everyone else.....

The good ones just happen...good 'old chemistry and clicking with someone's vibe...it has worked for years and years.....

2) Spend the time not in a relationship developing a great relationship with yourself and growing as much as you can as an individual. Life is a journey but you need to open doors to experience it..and a lot of those doors are inside of you....

3) Don't pick apart people. It is a nasty habit a lot of people have...and it will pretty much insure your failure. as an individual and as part of a couple.... HOWEVER... If you do decide to pick apart other people..make sure you leave some time to pick yourself apart...or tell someone else to do it for you.. and see how you feel about it. Empathy is a great quality and if you don't have it already..develop some. The above exercise will help

4) NEVER put a guy on a pedestal because you like the way he looks. Statues belong on pedestals...not people.

5) Avoid the Disney Princess Syndrome. Gay men seem to be embracing it which is a bit frightening Your prince will never come along...and never save you...no one can save you except for you. Your prince will never complete you...you must do that yourself. At best he can be a mirror to show you the way.

No one is perfect and it is a great disservice to any guy to insist he is perfect because you will get mad at him one day for not being the man you invented in your head..and most likely you won't take any responsibility for doing so which makes it even worse.

When you learn to love your dark side...all the parts of yourself you want to edit out..you will easily attract a man. Love your imperfections and your bullshit because it will be easier to love and accept it in someone else when you do..and EVEYONE has imperfections...and a dark side ....

I could go on...but I gotta stop somewhere....

[Trennntt]

it takes time to find the right one and you'll go through many for sure (: if you ever need to talk you can message me