Thoughts on Love

[InbetweenDreams]

What is love? I can look it up, get a definition and even then it doesn't seem to really provide much of an answer...

noun: love; plural noun: loves
1.
an intense feeling of deep affection.
"babies fill parents with intense feelings of love"
synonyms: deep affection, fondness, tenderness, warmth, intimacy, attachment, endearment; More
antonyms: hatred
a deep romantic or sexual attachment to someone.
"it was love at first sight"
synonyms: become infatuated with, give/lose one's heart to; More
a personified figure of love, often represented as Cupid.
noun: Love
a great interest and pleasure in something.
"his love for football"
synonyms: liking of/for, enjoyment of, appreciation of/for, taste for, delight for/in, relish of, passion for, zeal for, appetite for, zest for, enthusiasm for, keenness for, fondness for, soft spot for, weakness for, bent for, proclivity for, inclination for, disposition for, partiality for, predilection for, penchant for
"her love for fashion"
affectionate greetings conveyed to someone on one's behalf.
synonyms: best wishes, regards, good wishes, greetings, kind/kindest regards
"my mother sends her love"
a formula for ending an affectionate letter.
"take care, lots of love, Judy"

I guess what I am trying to get at is how do you know you're not just "in love" but truly, genuinely love someone and feel confident that you do so.

I have dated a couple guys who told me that they loved me after 2 dates and I'm like bullshit lol I know it doesn't work that way, but after some time and you start really connecting with someone things are much different. You crush on them you can't stop thinking about them and so on. No that's not really love, you're "in love."

I can say that love is somewhat like an onion, with layers. You love your parents, brothers and sisters, you care about them and spend time with them and connect with them and there are parallels (i think) between that and the kind of love you have with a partner.

This is where things get blurry for me. Suppose you're coming into a relationship and you really like someone, even the things they call flaws about themselves, you feel you want to spend eternity with them and want to put a smile on their face everyday. Is this love? Or is this just something else? I feel like I missing a link here.

I have always thought that if a couple can get over a fight that's the true test, but I also think in some cases fights can be pretty bad... It's subjective, what is the fight about and what does a fight got to do with being in love with someone. So I'm not totally convinced that a couple getting past a fight means that they really love each other...

I think the scary thing is how one can be so absolutely sure about someone today and say 7 years later you're ready to move on. Heck I'm just scared that I'm not going to make it to the 2nd date with someone that I admire just from talking to.

Speaking of being scared and worried about everything. It's something I keep coming back to. I had panic attacks about 18 months ago, then I realized a lot of my problem was simply worrying and getting stressed out over everything and between that and a few other things I get a panic attack or an anxiety attack (neither are fun). I mean I sat up in the office and started freaking out, had to leave work early and just sobbing all the way home and I didn't know why I felt that way. Just filled with guilt, nothing specific. Anyway, I started listening to an audiobook called "Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie. It helped for a good while, I did get better about it, but it's still there.

I still think it is something taught, might be somewhat a trait but seems like the issues I had with my dad growing up just made me doubt myself, so I feel like I'm just not good enough for someone and even though that isn't true it gets expressed as worry or insecure feeling about how someone might feel or maybe something I said might have somehow insulted or rubbed someone the wrong way.

Ok, so I got way off subject... So when it comes to love, how can you know for sure you're not just fooling yourself? I have heard people say, "I met hit and I knew right at that moment he was the one." Elaborate, how do you really know?

Seems like a lottery ticket in which the odds are always changing, but they're still the same numbers...

Bottom line is, getting too old to be making rookie mistakes, especially when it comes to worrying about shit doesn't effing matter. This one is too good to let get away, it is time to do it right... No more mistakes.

[Insertnamehere]

Wow this was long.

Sadly, I have zero input here. I can barely get people, let alone love.

I know shit about both.

[InbetweenDreams]

Well I'm sort of in the same boat. I mean yeah I've been in relationships but looking back on them (and mind you I was 22 at the time) I stayed in it for the wrong reason. I basically don't want to make the same mistakes... I mean if I screw up I don't want it to be for the same reasons. That and it is such an illusive subject... may smell like it, look like it, but doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. It is one thing my logical, analytical mind just can't seem to be able to wrap around.

[InbetweenDreams]

Same and i could never imagine ever being loved.

Why so dismal? I mean don't get me wrong there have been plenty of times I felt it simply will never happen. Attitude is part of the thing, if you're negative minded well chances are it's going to leak through...somehow people notice these things.

However, I'm speaking for me, from my perspective... The question really, how do I know I actually love someone? I mean we're beyond thinking someone is cute and sexy and so on... How would you know that you really do love someone and not just like them a lot more than a bit?

[InbetweenDreams]

Well I can say I got some good advice on this... and other things..

Basically love is just one of those weird things like quantum physics, doesn't make that much sense...is it a particle is it a wave...don't know it's both! It isn't something you can really pick apart or just read the definition (which just doesn't nail it). It is mysterious and I think it boils down to how much you want it, how far are you willing to go...how committed you are to a person.

The other thing that everyone on GS has been trying to drill into my head and very grateful for that. Most people...don't like clingy or being put on a pedestal... It's cute and sweet for a bit but after a while it gets old and probably weird. I don't think it is a problem to be excited about dating someone you think is great and I know no one is perfect, there's plenty I don't know... so there's plenty of getting to know to do. Learning to be patient has always been a struggle of mine and anyone who knows me knows that for sure. However, some things are worth the wait and learning to be more calm and collective is a very good thing, it allows you to simply slow down and observe and not feel like you're in a race.

The other thing which isn't really related to the thread. The choice to try to lose weight and all this running stuff I've been doing. I'm doing it for myself, not for anyone else, now I was motivated by several people actually...and yes the fine gentleman who I am dating was a big part of my motivation but it isn't exactly what you think. This has been something I have been putting off or making excuses to not do.

So I think I answered my own question, sometimes you need to hear things from other people and sit back and reflect.

I guess anyone who is wondering similar things about love, well who knows, but when you do love someone I don't think there will be much question about it.

[East]

As much as you love yourself is the gauge to use to figure out how much you are capable of loving someone else......

.....if someone else is "the answer" to everything.....figure out the question...it probably isn't pretty....

Can you accept the part of someone you don't like? Can you accept your own? Can you love your own flaws? Forgive yourself? Tell yourself the truth? Look in the mirror and see your dark side for what it is?

If so...you can extend that to someone else..and you are well on your way to experiencing unconditional love which is truly worth every bit of the effort it takes to get to that place...

Ultimately though....you should define love for yourself!!!!!!!

Fucking romance novels and the fat old virgins who write these fairly tales and screenplays and Hallmark bullshit cards and romanticize and idealize everything because they are too afraid to actually EXPERIENCE life....and love....have gotten away with defining love for the rest of us....take it back and define it for yourself.

I know...random thoughts...but since you asked

[ShiftyNJ]

A good friend of mine in high school said "You like someone because; you love someone although"

Love is inconvenient and messy and frustrating and I daresay foolish... why would you make yourself so vulnerable to another human being given how flawed we all are? And yet we do. People throw the word around (like the dates you were on) but I have seen some examples of what I consider true love, standing by a person through either serious, chronic illness or some huge personal failure when your instinct would be "run".

I can tell you that--having now been on the longest such adventure in my life--it is not a storybook. It can be monotonous and aggravating and unfair, and that's just my behaviour.

Sharing this clip, just because I love it:

[InbetweenDreams]

As much as you love yourself is the gauge to use to figure out how much you are capable of loving someone else......

.....if someone else is "the answer" to everything.....figure out the question...it probably isn't pretty....

Can you accept the part of someone you don't like? Can you accept your own? Can you love your own flaws? Forgive yourself? Tell yourself the truth? Look in the mirror and see your dark side for what it is?

If so...you can extend that to someone else..and you are well on your way to experiencing unconditional love which is truly worth every bit of the effort it takes to get to that place...

Ultimately though....you should define love for yourself!!!!!!!

Fucking romance novels and the fat old virgins who write these fairly tales and screenplays and Hallmark bullshit cards and romanticize and idealize everything because they are too afraid to actually EXPERIENCE life....and love....have gotten away with defining love for the rest of us....take it back and define it for yourself.

I know...random thoughts...but since you asked

Well random thoughts or not, definitely things I have or am struggling with. So I went to google and found these:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/briannaewiest/...lly-means/
http://tinybuddha.com/blog/how-to-start-...nd-enough/

I have always had issues with self confidence and self esteem. I have image issues about myself, hate that I'm overweight, hate that I'm not better looking or have all the things that other people have that seem to be desirable. I have been there.

I think what I'll do is just answer/reflect on the 5 things that is on thoughtcatalog.com rather than ramble about it....

1. Having the courage to forgive yourself. It means being able to acknowledge your humanity, your wrongdoing, but to not let it be a source of internal hatred. To understand that not forgiving yourself is the harshest criticism, and that nobody in your life will be able to love you until you forgive yourself for being human. Embrace your perfectly flawed self; it’s what makes the world so beautifully diverse and interesting.

Most of my problems are physical. I used to often thing I wasn't really all too smart...especially about 9 years ago. I thought I was always going to be working at some dead end job barely getting by and just had a dismal outlook on life. Well getting into the IT field had helped me a lot and seems that almost every time I had doubted myself I have been able to do things I never imagined being able to do... Mostly because I saw those things being much more distant than they really were, at least to me. I've learned all sorts of stuff about databases, programming and so on. So I think in some aspects I have been able to accept myself, others...self image that's a tough one and I know a lot of people have self image issues, even people I think shouldn't. You know...when a really attractive guy doesn't think he's attractive? I've seen that plenty of times and have been told myself.

2. Understanding that not your weight, nor your hair color, nor your choice of clothing, nor the funny way your stomach rolls when you slouch down makes you any less attractive than anybody else. There is not only one way to be beautiful, and loving yourself means realizing your own beauty for what it is, not in the context of how you look compared to anyone else (especially the nauseatingly perfect people in magazines).

Deep down I know I'm a decent looking guy. I know I'm not the hottest piece of ass to walk the Earth and won't be on the cover of a magazine, but I do know I'm certainly not ugly. I have learned that the things I find to be flaws might not be flaws to someone else and as crazy as it may sound someone could love those very things, much in the way I adore such flaws about someone else. Definitely puts me at ease when you find that someone has the same issues, insecurities that you do, makes you feel more human I guess. I don't like being seen as fat and it is something I can change. I do agree that you have to be doing it for the right reasons, you can't do it because you hate yourself or because someone else says you're fat. I have got those messages on dating apps, as much as you try to ignore it still hurts... I mean how shitty of a person do you have to be to go around shaming someone because of how they look.

It's a tough less to learn, still working on it and me getting down to 165 or whatever is going to take a lot of work. The thing I fear is that I get there and I'm still not going to like what I see... So definitely have to come to terms with my body, whether I find it appealing but know that someone else might, or might not see it as anything to be upset about. I've always felt that people paying me complements about how I looked were bullshitting me, just the way things rolled off their tounge and something you can just tell you're being lied to. That doesn't help.

I think a lot of people relate to this, so if you've been able to conquer this tell me how. I know I need to love myself, I get that, but just getting rid of the negative thoughts that pop up in my head is a good start.

3. That you have the choice to do what you love or to continue living a life being submissive to the expectations put on you. Loving yourself means understanding what makes your soul happy, and doing that thing as frequently as you’re able. Regardless of how much money you make, regardless of who judges you for it, and regardless of whether or not you’re wildly successful doing it. All you need to be successful is the knowledge that you are doing what you love most.

For the most part I do what I enjoy. I've enjoyed the running I do, I have a lot more energy and generally have been in a better mood... I think that aspect is really a good choice. I have a lot of hobbies. I don't spend a lot of times with friends and frankly making friends has been a challenge through out my life and I think the thing to take from all that is most people don't have a big clique they hang with. I mean some do and it's far better to have a few really close friends than a bunch of so called friends that only call you up when they need you. I seen many of those come and go. Used to get that kind of crap a lot when I was self employed doing computer repair. I had several customers who would befriend me, be all buddy buddy to basically get me to do stuff for free or way cheaper than I should have charged them.

I spend a lot of money on crap I don't need... Used to go buy crap to make myself feel better when I wasn't shoving food down my throat. Money, aside from it being a necessity to live really doesn't mean much to me. I like having my toys...car, computer stuff and so on. Could I live without it? Sure. I have even thought about selling the car and getting something more economical (mind you I had a Prius before the Challenger... bought it on an impulse basically). In hindsight I know I have made really bad decisions with money for all the wrong reasons. I think the thing to take from my experiences with money is not to spend money over emotions.

4. That not everyone will love you, and that not everybody has to. If you are being true to yourself, and somebody has a problem with that, that is their negative energy to deal with, not yours. Loving yourself means knowing that you will never have the love, praise and approval of absolutely everybody you meet, but that doesn’t reflect anything about who you are.

For the most part I accept the fact some people just aren't going to like me. Not to be confused with people being angry with me. I don't like people being mad at me, especially if I see it being my fault. The only thing that I fear and is something I need to get over and more or less not give a damn about is being rejected. Especially when you have invested a good bit of time and energy only to be kicked to the curb. However, the truth is, most people do suck and if they don't like you because of who you are then screw them. I know I have a lot to offer someone if they stick around.

5. Understanding that you have to love yourself before you can love anybody else, or before anyone else can love you. A relationship filled with anxiety, self-doubt, insecurity, etc. is headed for Hell, and I don’t think that’s news to anybody. You have to feel worthy of love, and that comes from loving yourself. How is someone else going to think you’re totally awesome when even you don’t think you are? A: they’re not. The greatest thing loving yourself means is that once you do, you’re better equipped to let the world love you as well.

This one hits it. I'm anxious person to begin with. I get nervous over things that are beyond my control and ultimately (for the most part) led me to having panic attacks. Can't carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, just doesn't work that way. I think what has sort of got me this go round is that most relationships I have been in got involved pretty quickly. I know that's no good and well the proof is...I'm not with those people anymore. This go round has taken of slowly, which really is better, if you're looking for something long term and not for fucking around, it really is better to slow down, get to know them and not do some of the things I have already done. I fall for people too easy, perhaps a bit desperate? Maybe so, but I see that now. The feeling of wanting someone to like you badly is dangerous and all this ought to be on repeat in my head. I have gone on plenty of dates with guys who never contact me again, even after I say good night, had a nice time....what dicks.

The way I see it is I need to be happy with who and what I am, regardless of how I look or how much crap I have, money, cars, other material possessions. It all boils down to personality, attitude and attributes in the end.

So it would seem I'm smart enough to see all these things, just have to try to put it in practice.

Attached, is what some asshole out of the blue messaged me. Don't know the guy, never spoke to him, just out of the blue.

[East]

Well random thoughts or not, definitely things I have or am struggling with. So I went to google and found these:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/briannaewiest/...lly-means/
http://tinybuddha.com/blog/how-to-start-...nd-enough/

I have always had issues with self confidence and self esteem. I have image issues about myself, hate that I'm overweight, hate that I'm not better looking or have all the things that other people have that seem to be desirable. I have been there.

I think what I'll do is just answer/reflect on the 5 things that is on thoughtcatalog.com rather than ramble about it....



Most of my problems are physical. I used to often thing I wasn't really all too smart...especially about 9 years ago. I thought I was always going to be working at some dead end job barely getting by and just had a dismal outlook on life. Well getting into the IT field had helped me a lot and seems that almost every time I had doubted myself I have been able to do things I never imagined being able to do... Mostly because I saw those things being much more distant than they really were, at least to me. I've learned all sorts of stuff about databases, programming and so on. So I think in some aspects I have been able to accept myself, others...self image that's a tough one and I know a lot of people have self image issues, even people I think shouldn't. You know...when a really attractive guy doesn't think he's attractive? I've seen that plenty of times and have been told myself.



Deep down I know I'm a decent looking guy. I know I'm not the hottest piece of ass to walk the Earth and won't be on the cover of a magazine, but I do know I'm certainly not ugly. I have learned that the things I find to be flaws might not be flaws to someone else and as crazy as it may sound someone could love those very things, much in the way I adore such flaws about someone else. Definitely puts me at ease when you find that someone has the same issues, insecurities that you do, makes you feel more human I guess. I don't like being seen as fat and it is something I can change. I do agree that you have to be doing it for the right reasons, you can't do it because you hate yourself or because someone else says you're fat. I have got those messages on dating apps, as much as you try to ignore it still hurts... I mean how shitty of a person do you have to be to go around shaming someone because of how they look.

It's a tough less to learn, still working on it and me getting down to 165 or whatever is going to take a lot of work. The thing I fear is that I get there and I'm still not going to like what I see... So definitely have to come to terms with my body, whether I find it appealing but know that someone else might, or might not see it as anything to be upset about. I've always felt that people paying me complements about how I looked were bullshitting me, just the way things rolled off their tounge and something you can just tell you're being lied to. That doesn't help.

I think a lot of people relate to this, so if you've been able to conquer this tell me how. I know I need to love myself, I get that, but just getting rid of the negative thoughts that pop up in my head is a good start.

OK..I have been able to conquer this...and it would actually take a book to fully explain how..I will try to narrow it down to a page or less....

About appearance (and this is all the advice and examples I gave myself).....

Consider a compliment and an insult strictly regarding your looks as one and the same....

For instance...the message you got from the idiot...find a way to see that as the exact same thing when someone tells you that you are really handsome or good looking....

Trust me..it is one of THE KEYS to overcoming the self image problem...

I had zero self esteem when I was young and I still struggle with it...but not nearly as much....and I have never really understood the whole "thing" about someone's appearance. Sometimes I feel like the kid in The Emperor with no Clothes...

I worked behind the bar in a gay bar for 20 years..a busy one..and I got a lot of compliments..as any bartender does... which began my quest to figure it all out. I love a good mystery. See...I wasn't happy at all when people said that to me because my real answer was..."gee...thanks....I guess I will go tell my parents that you like their genes...."

What annoyed me about it..they didn't see ME at all...and I didn't like it at all. I felt insulted a bit because I felt it reduced me to nothing..and I was struggling really hard to BE who I was...and thrive and survive...I would have rather some tell me I am ugly so I could laugh at least.....

People say random sex with strangers is meaningless BUT..at least they saw me...felt me...and I never fucked anyone who spent time giving me compliments on my appearance. If they knew me already..I am OK with it because if they think I am sexy or ugly at least they have a chance to know WHO I am and I am going to assume that factors into it.

One thing you need to replace in your brain and repeat it every day until it is WHO you are...BEAUTY IS COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE. I am completely stunned at some of the people everyone finds attractive...and I want to know how porn producers managed to find 3,405 people who all looked exactly alike??? Did the pod people arrive for real? EEK!

The way I see beauty....

I have no idea if I am ugly or good looking one way of the other...and I LOVE IT because it frees me from all that bullshit. My self image is simple. If I feel good...or I did something I am proud of...or when I am being true to myself..I think I look great because I feel great ...but when I am doing something shitty or false ...I think I look ugly because I feel ugly....

What other people think of my looks is sooooo unimportant because I want to see myself through my own eyes..not theirs. THAT is how you repair self esteem...

Don't participate in objectifying other people based solely on their looks...and don't worry if other people do it. They aren't bad or wrong...but if you want to participate fully in your own life and repair the self image...never even think about someone being really good looking or really ugly...and if you find yourself going there...try to see if it is something deeper..like their vibe or attitude or actions that make them one or the other..... If you think someone is sexy...train yourself to see something else about the person that isn't physical...and if you change this behavior..you will be extending the same courtesy to yourself.

Base your opinion of yourself on who you are..not what you look like. It is unimportant in the grand scheme of things..and even if you reach the "pinnacle" of false beauty...it wont' even matter because beauty truly comes from within you ...and you have been inundated with images of beauty since you were born..they are shoved down your throat and imprinted in your brain...so it is your job to undo the damage.....and see things as they really are. We are all collectively brainwashed. The truth is...the definition of beauty comes from Madison Avenue and people who want to sell you crap...and it changes just as fast as we do because they want to make $$$$...and it isn't even beauty...it is a mass delusion...



Oh yeah..the "good looking guys" LOL...gay bar again..OMG..they are like 100X more insecure than either you or I...seriously. A lot of them are what I call psychic vampires. They get their sense of themselves completely though someone else's eyes and they soak in all of the images of beauty as being who they are...and they frequently come up empty and scared because there isn't enough people to feed their growing ego and their whole sense of themselves is built on a false premise..never understanding that beauty is completely subjective....

I had one seat in the corner of the bar someone was always sitting in waiting for me to not be busy and frequently It was the "gods" whining about their appearance and how much they hated how ugly they were. YUP..the same guys so many people idolize...empty as fuck and as insecure as they come....BECAUSE YOU CAN NEVER ASSESS YOUR SELF WORTH BASED ON YOUR APPEARANCE. False beauty is a lie....so call it what it is..a house of cards. Replace your thoughts about being ugly (which is a lie) with the truth....

That is the advice I gave them. It is the advice I gave myself..and the advice I am giving you or anyone else if they are interested.

Way too many people compare themselves to other people or to impossible false images of beauty...STOP IT!!!!!!!! Don't even entertain those thoughts..change them. It is bad wiring to keep them and entertain them and it will just create a deeper hole for you.

Sorry if I wasn't succinct...it is hard for me to tackle this big of a topic in writing..I am much better with verbal communication....

It is a lot of work to undo conditioning.,..but it can be done..I promise.

My signature on this board for years was this: "BRAINWASH YOURSELF...BEFORE SOMONE NASTY BEATS YOU TO IT"...there are a lot of layers there...and it can be a useful tool..and interpreted in many ways...

[MikeW]

...That is the advice I gave them. It is the advice I gave myself..and the advice I am giving you or anyone else if they are interested.

...Sorry if I wasn't succinct...it is hard for me to tackle this big of a topic in writing..I am much better with verbal communication....

No, you said it very well, clearly and succinctly. EVERY GUY ON THIS FORUM SHOULD READ [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]'s POST. Some should read it daily for the next 20 years.

The problem is we're all programmed to look at things superficially. From what East says, he somehow escaped that getting 'hard-wired' into his brain. For him, it was always a kind of "question"... 'How does that work?'

I'm a visual person. I *LOVE* looking at male bodies... especially young hot ones. A lot of this, for me, stems from having spent a lot of time looking at (and being influenced by) comic book heroes AND classical greek and roman male sculpture.

At the same time I totally get what East is saying. I agree, when I feel good about myself, I *feel* better looking, sexier. When I'm not in that 'head space', I feel ugly, undesirable. Hell, even I don't want to have anything to do with me!

But I agree, if you can look at someone who has that "look" and then look deeper, ask, "Who is there?"... then we're closer to being on the right track.