Is it racist to have a dating preference?

[JisthenewK]

I am sorry to everyone here. I just wanted everyone's opinion. I didn't think it would get this out of hand.

[Emiliano]

What I am curious is what is your definition of racism exactly. Not suggesting that anyone's thoughts or definition is right or wrong, mostly out of curiosity.

I go by the sociological definition of racism.
"Racism refers to a host of practices, beliefs, social relations and phenomena that work to reproduce a racial hierarchy and social structure that yields superiority and privilege for some, and discrimination and oppression for others. Racism takes representational, ideological, discursive, interactional, institutional, structural, and systemic forms. Despite its form, at its core, racism is constituted by essentialist racial categories that turn human subjects into stereotyped objects, and then uses those stereotypes to justify and reproduce a racial hierarchy and racially structured society that limits access to resources, rights, and privileges on the basis of race."

I think the most important aspect of that is the pointing out of the different forms it can take. That's what I'm referring to when I say that it's not just the most obvious examples like the KKK or Nazis. Racism exists in many forms and plays out at different levels of society - sometimes consciously and sometimes not, sometimes overtly and violently, sometimes very subtly.

The thing I notice about you is everything seems to be racially motivated... Perhaps from your POV that is very much true and unfortunate.

In topic where the subject is about having racial preferences, yes... what I write is going to be about the racial motivations of things. When you and I have talked about politics and Donald Trump's election, yes I'm going to talk about how race played a role in the election of a man who ran on racial rhetoric and white identity politics. But if you talk to me about art, infrastructure, food, NYC, zombies, cats, beaches, wine, Game of Thrones, my amazing geography skills... it's probably not going to be all about race. Not everything is racially motivated with me. But I don't shy away from conversations about race. Race is a very real part of my life. In many positive ways too. Not everything that has to do with race is something sad or terrible.

Because of that, race is a topic I am interested in. It's something I'm aware of. I could share the why's of all that and talk about my racial identity and why it's been such a thing in my life, but it's not really the point. The point is, it's something I think about, it's something I observe, it relates very directly to me and my life. It's not just some concept that's out there. It has a very real impact on me and because of that, it's something I pay attention to.

But, when I do bring race up, I'm not necessarily using it as something to attack people with. If I'm going to call you or anyone else a racist, I'll literally call you a racist. Which, to clarify, I haven't done here. I'm not trying to start fights or hurt people's feelings. But I do like having deeper conversations. That's what my goal was originally in this thread, to talk about the role of race, the role of our racial preferences, biases, and prejudices.

You said that you view a good first step to ending racism would be to treat one person the same as you'd treat another. I don't disagree with you. And yes, you're also right to have assumed that I'm going to say it's not enough - that just addresses one form of racism. But I agree it's a good first step. And if that's what we want to do, then we cannot just brush off stereotypes as the problem of the ignorant and the stupid. Stereotypes affect the way we view each other, as well as ourselves. (Maybe you'd be interested in looking into the concept of Stereotype Threat as well.) Rather, we should call attention to them, examine them, discuss them, figure out how and why they are perpetuated. But pretending like it's not a factor or that it's someone else's problem and that we are not influenced by or participate in ourselves, that doesn't help. At all

What I've noticed is that many white people ignore and avoid the role race plays or talking about race. I get that race and racism discussions are uncomfortable for many white people. Like I said before, I also don't think many white have to think about race, have to form racial identities, have to consider the role of race in their lives. I can see how for you guys conversations about race can be easily viewed as just conversations about how you guys fucked up the whole planet.

But - I want white people to be able to fully participate in conversations about race. Not because I want them to feel bad about their history or ashamed or guilty or whatever. But because we can't realistically expect to begin to solve the issues of race in the USA until 1, white people are able to see and acknowledge themselves as part of a racial group as well and 2, are able to see and acknowledge the influence and effects of race in our society.

I would love for you or someone to start a thread on here about whiteness. I'd love to read what people have to say about that. It's a perspective on race and identity that I just don't have and I'm curious about it.

I think we can agree that ignorance is the only reason these stereotypes continue to exist... along with stupidity.

I don't. I think ignorance is one of the reasons, but not the only.

Why do the stereotypes exist today?

For similar reasons why they developed and were cultivated and perpetuated. They are a means to control people and to gain and maintain power.

You're a southerner- what is your understanding of the era of reconstruction leading in to the era of Jim Crow? I think there's a lot of connections to those time periods and the stereotypes of black people in America that still hold strong today.

Why are we attracted to what we're attracted to? Why do I like guys who have black hair? Or smile a certain way? We're attracted to what we're attracted to.

This is what I was trying to get at in my previous posts.
This is the question: Why are we attracted to what we are attracted to?
But this is not the answer:We're attracted to what we're attracted to.
That's like answering the question, "why is the sky blue?" by saying, "because the sky is blue."

Why are we attracted to what we are attracted to? Specifically when it comes to race - not haircuts or colors, not smiles, not body types, not personality....

I don't want or expect anyone to answer "you caught me E, it's because I'm a big nasty racist." That's not my point.

But whether it's a strong attraction to people outside our own race or an exclusive attraction to people within our own race... why are we attracted to what we are attracted to?

And I'm not saying people can't have those preferences. I'm asking us to think about why do we have them.

We are shaped by our experiences, our own identities, our peers, our media, our cultures, our societies... and what have those things taught us about race? About our own and others?

Funny how the south gets the stereotype of being a bunch of dumb white racists when I see less of it here....not that there aren't intolerant people here. I mean being gay in this area and looking the part definitely makes you a target.

Well, a stereotype of white people (they exist for you guys too) is that they're all very racist. Especially southerners. Of course this is bullshit. Northern white people really like pushing that one about their southern counterparts, just like liberal ones like pushing it about their conservative ones. Because it allows liberal, northern white people to make racism the problem of the south and the conservative, and they get to distance themselves from it. But that's a load of bullshit too. Anyway, it's a stereotype youve got working against you.
It's not fun to be defined like that, to think that's what people are assuming about you.

On the last part of what you said there, about the intolerance towards gay people in your area. You are aware of that. "Looking the part" makes you more a target. So the inability to pass as straight.

This is why some part of me always wanted to think that gay white people would have a better understanding of racism, a greater empathy, than straight white people. Because we as gay men get the same kind of shit. But race is just as much an issue in our community as it is in the broader cultures.

Personally, I have experienced far more negative interactions related to race with white gay men than white straight men.

Maybe it's because we as gay men, men in general, tend to be focused on the physical.

Maybe it's because we are already used to having to defend our attractions as something innate within us in order to legitimize those attractions in the eyes of others.

Maybe it's because like all other groups of people, we are simply just more concerned with issues that most directly relate to us....






And I do want to say, since I've been labeled as being pretentious and acting like I'm taking some moral high ground here... I'm not saying any of this from the perspective that I'm so wise and all knowing and have it all figured out. I'm not and I don't. I have racial biases, stereotypes shade my perspectives, I absorb all of this stuff and am affected by it just like everyone else. I am not outside of this, I'm very much in it too.

And that's really what I'm trying to say here - we all are.
So let's think about it.

[meridannight]

Stereotypes are stereotypes, the problem is ignorange and sometimes down right stupidity. Like assuming Asian kids are automatically good at Math and that black kid running down the street just robbed a gas station.

Why do the stereotypes exist today?

Because there is a kernel of truth in every stereotype that exists. Otherwise it wouldn't exist. Doesn't mean it's true in any particular case, that's the critical difference.

The thing I notice about you is everything seems to be racially motivated... Perhaps from your POV that is very much true and unfortunate. Funny how the south gets the stereotype of being a bunch of dumb white racists when I see less of it here....not that there aren't intolerant people here. I mean being gay in this area and looking the part definitely makes you a target.

You're not the only one who sees it. I've noticed it for a long time as well. That's why I can't take anything [MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION] says about race seriously. He doesn't come across as impartial, or someone who can be taken at his word on this particular subject. He's very sensitive on this topic, which would be fine -- different people are sensitive about different things -- but he's stopped making sense anymore with what he has to say on this topic. It's obvious he's letting his emotions - whatever they are - color this subject.


Yeah, I'm a white privileged male (not gonna apologize for that), who lives in a community that doesn't have that many black people. I probably never will get this race thing the way blacks etc do, but I also think some people are making too much of things. Crying wolf where there is none. There is a lot of that going on as well. In fact, most of the racial prejudice is over by our time. Some people just extend it too far, to still keep it alive so they have something to complain about. And that is reality. It's why I don't take this whining about race seriously with some people.


When you overreact to a simple statement a few guys here have made (i.e. not being attracted to certain races), like Emiliano did, when you sidetrack the whole conversation to include I don't know how much stuff about racial history and culture that have nothing to do with this particular thread/conversation, that exactly means you're taking things too far and getting off course.


Also, you can't just claim that you weren't calling anybody racist when you say this:

I don't understand how it cannot be related to race to either fetishize or dismiss another based exclusively on their racial identity and our own perceptions of that identity. It makes no sense to me that someone could say, to use your example, "yeah I'm not attracted to black men, but it has nothing to do with race or how I perceive black men."

Just because you don't directly say, ''meridannight is racist'', that is what that sentence implies. I am not sexually attracted to black men. Ergo, it's related to race according to Emiliano, and I'm thus a racist. Fine. Apparently you don't need a lot to be racist according to him.

That sentence was what probably threw a lot of us off. Just because you don't fucking understand it, doesn't mean your perspective is right. Get off your high horse already!

I don't give a fuck about race. People are people, and I like them or I don't. Race has nothing to do with it. So get the fuck over yourselves. My sexual attractions are my sexual attractions and I have every right to be ''racist'' about them and discriminate according to my taste. And I will.

[Camfer]

I see we've got the standard patterns arising here that occur so often in discussions around racism. White people saying they're tired of talking about racial issues. White people dropping F-bombs in their posts and getting upset because they perceive they've been accused of being racist. Minorities accused of being too sensitive. Minorities accused that they're ascribing things to race that aren't racial. People's privilege being invisible to themselves. And on and on.

I wan to thank [MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION] for trying to create some understanding and staying calm and careful in his posts. I see at lot of it has been misunderstood. It still needed to be said.

[Emiliano]

I see we've got the standard patterns arising here that occur so often in discussions around racism. White people saying they're tired of talking about racial issues. White people dropping F-bombs in their posts and getting upset because they perceive they've been accused of being racist. Minorities accused of being too sensitive. Minorities accused that they're ascribing things to race that aren't racial. People's privilege being invisible to themselves. And on and on.

I wan to thank [MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION] for trying to create some understanding and staying calm and careful in his posts. I see at lot of it has been misunderstood. It still needed to be said.

Thank you, I appreciate you saying that. I'm still sort of in awe that what I said caused such a reaction in some people. So thank you for recognizing that I have tried to be understanding, calm, and careful in all of my posts. I've answered the questions asked of me, I've restated things, given explanations for things I'm talking about. I am guilty of talking about race in a thread about race... But to some, I'm the sensitive, whining, hysterical one. Somehow I'm the aggressor?

[MENTION=21405]meridannight[/MENTION] I never claimed to be unbiased in regards to my views on race. And it's not my role or responsibility to be. You should know better than to expect me to be, or to exclude my emotions from how I experience the world- I'm not a robot.

I have not asked you to be unbiased either. I have not asked you to apologize for anything about who you are or what you like. Despite how you seem to think, I have not called you a racist or suggested you were one. You seem to think I'm foaming at the mouth trying to insult and blame everyone here for the worlds problems or something, and that's both surprising and insulting. You and I don't agree on many things, but I was under the impression we had built up some mutual respect for eachother. You're certainly one of the more interesting people in this site in my opinion.

You clearly think I've attacked you because I said something about white people, where they are the racial majority, not being as aware of racial problems as non white people are. Both you and [MENTION=23180]InbetweenDreams[/MENTION] have agreed with that in your own words too. So I don't see why you're so upset or why he's asking to have his account deleted now (especially since I thought that was a very friendly respectful reply I gave him earlier today.

It's not me coming after you guys. You're the one who has called me all kinds of names on this thread, you're the one who questioned my motives and intelligence, and supposedly decided to stop talking to me at all because my viewpoint is one that doesn't compliment yours and seems to make you very uncomfortable. All that and I'm still nice enough and respectful enough to be willing to keep having a conversation with you, as insulted and disrespected by you as I feel. But I guess even me doing that is just proof to you that I'm on some kind of high horse or view myself as morally superior to you. I don't think that. But I do think you're the one being sensitive here.


I'll be sure to rewatch this and take some notes this time around. Maybe in the future I'll have a better understanding of my expected role in discussions about race.

[meridannight]

[MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION], I've only had one problem with what you've said on this thread, but it's a big problem in my book. It's these quotes by you:

Whether we are saying we are not attracted to an entire racial group, or that we find an entire racial group attractive, it is directly related to race and to treating that race as a monolith.

I disagree with the comparisons made between racial preferences and sexual orientation. The logic used to make that connection is one of convenience and comfort.

^ Not sure I understand this one, but it seems to say that you don't think it's possible for someone to find a whole race unattractive/attractive sexually.

I don't understand how it cannot be related to race to either fetishize or dismiss another based exclusively on their racial identity and our own perceptions of that identity. It makes no sense to me that someone could say, to use your example, "yeah I'm not attracted to black men, but it has nothing to do with race or how I perceive black men."

These, are in fact, completely legitimate attractions/turn-offs. I will absolutely argue for that as long as I breathe. I don't think anybody has the right to tell another person that their attractions are due to something other than physical appeal/unconscious pull. That is ultimately what your arguments suggest, and that is absolutely a false and an untrue position.


Yeah, I called you names and all that. You fucking pissed me off, man. I admit I might not have been 100% fair with that, but anger sometimes isn't.


And this last post of yours is different in tone than some others that came before where you sounded like you were the one with the utmost authority on this subject. You might not perceive it that way yourself. That's how you sounded. How do you expect people to react? Some will react just counter to that alone. It's not so much about rational points or logical arguments. It's the way one side says something that usually sets someone off. You don't get fire without the smoke.


I don't feel hurt being called a racist or sexist (you may or may not have implied it, I'm not arguing this point any further, because it's unimportant in the end). I don't react to those things. And I probably am sexist, and have no problem with that. My problem with you is your quotes above that I reposted. If you can't see how wrong you are in saying something like that, then you and I will never see to eye to eye. Attraction is a physical thing. It is unwilled and it is precipitated spontaneously. And for some people, it excludes large whole groups of people who share similar physical characteristics. And you don't get to delegitimize those attractions.

As I said, I am not attracted to black men because I am not attracted to people who look like that, who have a common characteristic of dark enough skin. It is not physically appealing to me. What do you want me to do about it?

I wouldn't like a white guy either if he dyed his skin black, if that was possible, (just for the argument's sake, or: Robert Downey Jr, in Tropic Thunder). Race and skin color happen to go together. How do you separate that out to NOT make it tied to race anyway? It's a physical feature. Sexual attraction is a reaction to physical features. How is it not the most logical/sensible/simplest matter in the world to understand that?


You might find that it sounds wrong to say one doesn't find a whole race attractive, I get that. But that's just all that it is -- it just sounds a bit wrong because of history of racial tension and conflict. Underneath it's the physical reality and no matter what you say or anybody says -- it's not gonna change. I hold no racial prejudice against black guys, but what I find physically appealing and beautiful is not influenced by philosophical/ethical factors/arguments.


Tell me-- what exactly do you want one to do whose dick doesn't get hard for black men? Huh? What do you propose? Is that a situation that needs to be ''solved''? Should people who feel such a way refrain from speaking their mind lest someone be hurt? (That is what I find fucking wrong in all this mess of an argument with you, the implication that expressing such feelings is wrong).

So you don't understand you don't understand it. That's it. Case closed. You don't understand some people's sexual attractions. You can't because it is tied directly to experience, like I said somewhere above. Do you honestly not get this point that I'm trying to make you see? I don't understand how someone can find women attractive. They're repulsive, and I don't get it. I will never get it. But I don't claim that just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean it's not reality for some people. A legitimate reality and on an equal basis with other attractions.

[Emiliano]

[MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION], I've only had one problem with what you've said on this thread, but it's a big problem in my book. It's these quotes by you:






^ Not sure I understand this one, but it seems to say that you don't think it's possible for someone to find a whole race unattractive/attractive sexually.




These, are in fact, completely legitimate attractions/turn-offs. I will absolutely argue for that as long as I breathe. I don't think anybody has the right to tell another person that their attractions are due to something other than physical appeal/unconscious pull. That is ultimately what your arguments suggest, and that is absolutely a false and an untrue position.


Yeah, I called you names and all that. You fucking pissed me off, man. I admit I might not have been 100% fair with that, but anger sometimes isn't.


And this last post of yours is different in tone than some others that came before where you sounded like you were the one with the utmost authority on this subject. You might not perceive it that way yourself. That's how you sounded. How do you expect people to react? Some will react just counter to that alone. It's not so much about rational points or logical arguments. It's the way one side says something that usually sets someone off. You don't get fire without the smoke.


I don't feel hurt being called a racist or sexist (you may or may not have implied it, I'm not arguing this point any further, because it's unimportant in the end). I don't react to those things. And I probably am sexist, and have no problem with that. My problem with you is your quotes above that I reposted. If you can't see how wrong you are in saying something like that, then you and I will never see to eye to eye. Attraction is a physical thing. It is unwilled and it is precipitated spontaneously. And for some people, it excludes large whole groups of people who share similar physical characteristics. And you don't get to delegitimize those attractions.

As I said, I am not attracted to black men because I am not attracted to people who look like that, who have a common characteristic of dark enough skin. It is not physically appealing to me. What do you want me to do about it?

I wouldn't like a white guy either if he dyed his skin black, if that was possible, (just for the argument's sake, or: Robert Downey Jr, in Tropic Thunder). Race and skin color happen to go together. How do you separate that out to NOT make it tied to race anyway? It's a physical feature. Sexual attraction is a reaction to physical features. How is it not the most logical/sensible/simplest matter in the world to understand that?


You might find that it sounds wrong to say one doesn't find a whole race attractive, I get that. But that's just all that it is -- it just sounds a bit wrong because of history of racial tension and conflict. Underneath it's the physical reality and no matter what you say or anybody says -- it's not gonna change. I hold no racial prejudice against black guys, but what I find physically appealing and beautiful is not influenced by philosophical/ethical factors/arguments.


Tell me-- what exactly do you want one to do whose dick doesn't get hard for black men? Huh? What do you propose? Is that a situation that needs to be ''solved''? Should people who feel such a way refrain from speaking their mind lest someone be hurt? (That is what I find fucking wrong in all this mess of an argument with you, the implication that expressing such feelings is wrong).

If you're asking me what I think should be done to people who aren't attracted to entire of races of people, then I still have to insist that you didn't comprehend what I was saying. Again, I'm getting really annoyed by how you're treating me like I'm some tyrant who has under threat of punishment, forced you to have sex with a black man and made you tell me how you liked it. When have I spoken to you or anyone else here like that. That's what is pissing me off in your replies to me.

You should stop and reflect on all the behavior and tone and judgement and insinuations you think I've passed on you in this thread and then reread what you have and continue to write to me. I haven't told you to "fix" anything else about who or how you are. But if you want to talk to me, you need to fix that.


When I said I don't understand how a person can say that they are not attracted to an entire race of people, but at the same time also say that it has nothing to do with race...

-It was not me questioning the reality of people who do not feel attraction to an entire racial group.
-It was not me offended and horrified about how they could possibly generalize an entire race.
-By saying that I don't understand it, is not me saying that they should be punished.
-Me saying I don't understand it, is not me saying they are inherently racist.

It is me saying that I am confused by how a person that does not find a certain race attractive can say that race is not a factor in that.

How can I rephrase that or make some analogy that could make that more clear... ok, a parallel thing would be for me to say that I don't understand how a gay man could say that he doesn't find women attractive, but it has nothing to do with her gender.

-It's not that I don't understand how gay men don't find women attractive.
-It's not how I don't understand how gay men could lump all women together as a monolith.
-It's not that I think gay men should be converted to heterosexuality or made to be ashamed of being attracted to men, or punished, or whatever.
-It's not me saying they are inherently misogynist.

It's that I don't understand how a person can say they don't find women attractive, but that it has nothing to do with gender. In that case it IS her gender that you find unattractive. So it has to do with gender and the things that are gender indicators like vaginas.

In the case of black people, it is their race that you find unattractive. So it has to do with race and the things that are racial indicators like skin color.

I understand it when someone like yourself says - I'm not attracted to black men because I'm not attracted to black skin. I get that. It's when that is followed by the assertion that the racial preference you have has nothing to do with race. That's when it's confusing to me. How can a racial preference have nothing to do with race.

Lol please for my own sanity, tell me you understand what I'm saying. Or I will have to start coming up with some punishments.

Since I keep being asked what it is that I want and what it is that I expect of people, it's that if a person has a racial bias, they should be able to admit they have a racial bias. Just admit it, it doesn't mean they support ethnic cleansing or segregation. It just means they have a racial bias. I have a racial bias. I think you have a racial bias. I think most people have racial biases. I don't really believe people who say they don't have any racial biases.

You don't have to feel bad about it, I'm not telling anyone to. If it doesn't bother you to have a racial bias in dating and you don't believe it effects your broader interactions with others, then ok. You have a racial bias, you don't find black men attractive, but you have black friends and you don't view black people as sub human. That's awesome- not all cases of racial bias end with a lynching.

But i think people who truly are not racist should be working to acknowledge where racial biases exist. Not so they can be punished for having them, but so that they can be aware of them. Because the more self aware we are as individuals and as a community or a society, the better we can be about making sure that we aren't mistreating people, or turning a blind eye to the mistreatment of others by other people. If we pretend race does not affect our interactions with eachother even on a small, harmless scale - we are at risk of not seeing how race affects our interactions on a larger, more dangerous scale.

I expect a person who recognizes they have a racial bias, but who is not racist (I will include myself in this expectation as well) to be who they are and fuck what they want. But to be aware of it, to be thoughtful about how it developed, and to examine the significance of that. I know that you specifically are an intelligent and thoughtful man. You seem to be attracted to things that require heavy thinking and analysis, you seem to enjoy challenging yourself intellectually. Why not extend that to race. By your own admission, race is not something you have to spend much time thinking about. So the few times you are asked to, it shouldn't be something that's so hard, impossible, or infuriating to do.

Let's treat the power of race with a little more respect than to say, it doesn't exist, it doesn't matter, it has nothing to do with this, this is just how I am, I was born this way.

We are far more intelligent, sophisticated... and confusing, creatures than that.

[Cobalt]

[MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION]

This would be my first serious post this year on the forum but, I have resolution to write more this year than I have in previous years. Not just on this forum, in general I want to write more. I enjoy doing it but due to depression (life long, which I've accepted I'll never be truly "cured" or freed from, it's a part of me) I don't do enough of it. I have to force myself really to write.

I haven't read a lot of this thread. Bits and pieces yeah but, not the full thing. I've read enough to understand you want two things.
-Discussion
-Perspective
I'll give you the second one, not sure how much it'll give you for the first.

I'm white. Like a lot of whites I'm sure I'm composed of a dozen or so pieces of nationalities across the globe but, looking at me you would say "He's white." I'm only attracted to white guys. Now, why is that? I've got Daddy issues. I'll openly scream that out to anyone who seriously wonders about it. I'll admit it to the top of the hill and back. It's probably sickening for people to hear (or deranged) but I want a father figure for a partner. Yes, that's pretty messed up and unhealthy. Full on will admit that. There's a lot of unhealthy things about me, that's no different. So why do I think my daddy issues relates to this topic of racism? Because of my daddy issues.

Since I'm looking for a replacement Daddy/Father first and a partner second, this colors (pardon) my perspective. Being White, I can't see an Asian man as my Dad. I can't see a Black man as my Dad. Biologically I'm wanting a person of my ethnicity. My subconscious wants to be able to rationalize and internalize this new partner/guy as "replacement Dad". I want to see someone who looks like me (ethnically).

Am I racist? Yes. I'll admit I am. Do I hate black guys or Asian girls or whatever the race? I guess it depends on what we call hate. Consciously, I think I like everybody. I don't see myself as a racist. But I know how I feel. If I see a middle eastern guy, I'll think "terrorist" or "the mother fucker whose job is a god damn telemarketer who calls me at 2 in the afternoon asking if I want to buy discount viagra". If I see a black guy I'll think "dangerous" or "probably in a gang at some point". See an Asian guy/girl and think "knows Karate" or "loves cartoon anime cats" or something of that nature. Now I fully and totally don't think through these things all at once or always those things but the gut feeling I get around people who aren't white, that part is racist. It's a pre-conceived thought about who these people are without actually knowing them at all or even being close enough to see the words on their shirt.

But if you want a white's perspective on other whites, I'm probably a bad person to ask. I don't trust anybody, white or black or yellow. I don't typically like people, period. First reaction on seeing most whites? "Fucker voted Trump" or "I bet they hate gays" or something else negative. Ever since I moved to the South I definitely assume "Bible thumping gay hating bigot" upon seeing any white person. I assume the worst first and wait to be proven otherwise. Perhaps that's why I do have racist tendencies, because I'm wired to have ill thoughts. That's not an excuse as much as it is an explanation. I don't really care if I've even offended anybody with what I wrote. I'm not going to pretend that I'm a swell human being and say "I'm not racist at all" when I know deep down that's not true. I DO have my assumptions about ethnicity, I DO have my judgments about certain types of people. That doesn't make it right or excusable, I'm just saying I have the insight enough to know who and what I am.

[meridannight]

When I said I don't understand how a person can say that they are not attracted to an entire race of people, but at the same time also say that it has nothing to do with race...

-It was not me questioning the reality of people who do not feel attraction to an entire racial group.
-It was not me offended and horrified about how they could possibly generalize an entire race.
-By saying that I don't understand it, is not me saying that they should be punished.
-Me saying I don't understand it, is not me saying they are inherently racist.



I understand it when someone like yourself says - I'm not attracted to black men because I'm not attracted to black skin. I get that. It's when that is followed by the assertion that the racial preference you have has nothing to do with race. That's when it's confusing to me. How can a racial preference have nothing to do with race.

Lol please for my own sanity, tell me you understand what I'm saying. Or I will have to start coming up with some punishments.

Since I keep being asked what it is that I want and what it is that I expect of people, it's that if a person has a racial bias, they should be able to admit they have a racial bias. Just admit it, it doesn't mean they support ethnic cleansing or segregation. It just means they have a racial bias. I have a racial bias. I think you have a racial bias. I think most people have racial biases. I don't really believe people who say they don't have any racial biases.

You don't have to feel bad about it, I'm not telling anyone to. If it doesn't bother you to have a racial bias in dating and you don't believe it effects your broader interactions with others, then ok. You have a racial bias, you don't find black men attractive, but you have black friends and you don't view black people as sub human. That's awesome- not all cases of racial bias end with a lynching.

I don't know what to tell you anymore.

This is certainly different than what you said in here:

In some cases it is. No racial or ethnic group is a monolith - in behavior or in appearance and it makes me cringe, whatever the context, to see or hear people treat them as they are.

Maybe we are born gay, but I don't believe we are born gay for 6ft tall - 6.3 foot tall blonde haired, green eyed men with a short to medium length beard and who has a few tasteful tattoos, who speaks three languages, works in advertising, wears stylish clothing and has a trendy haircut and can trace his ancestry back to Gothenburg, Sweden.

Again, nobody chooses what they are attracted to. In fact, we are born to like or dislike certain features (not as specific as height, etc but I didn't take that part literally anyway), including skin color. At least sexually.


I'm not the only one who understood you like that. Maybe you should reread yourself, or I don't know, maybe it's your background in this subject that makes you easily understand things that are not obvious to some people who don't deal with the topic of race on a monthly, or even yearly basis (me). You might express it facilely and think it's clear, but for someone who talks on the subject of race once in 33 years, things that are clear to you might not be that for him.

I certainly did not understand you meant the things in the perspective you quoted in your last post to me (and parts of which I included above). That was not obvious to me anywhere above until your last post. I did not misunderstand. This clarification was simply not there until now.


This also seems to suggest to me you think there is something 'causing' people's attractions, which I wholly disagree with:

Like I said, we all have preferences and biases. But there's a way and a reason that those preferences and biases develop.

There is no 'reason' for attraction other than physical appeal, which is something a person does not choose or psychologically psyche themselves into. It's involuntary. It has no reason or cause. Ergo, you can't blame a person for feeling that way or 'cringe' when someone is like that, to use your own words.



But, if you're okay with people having the attractions they have and find nothing wrong with that including people finding whole races unattractive, then that's what I wanted to hear. You did not come off like you were okay with it, and I don't know how to make you see it. I've already quoted the problematic passages, but you must have a different understanding about them or I don't know what.

[Emiliano]

Oh [MENTION=21405]meridannight[/MENTION] .... I'm finding myself much more interested in having a conversation with you about having a conversation about race than I am in discussing racial biases and how they are formed.

I don't know you very well, but I have talked with you enough and paid enough attention to your conversations with others to know that you have very rigid and strongly held opinions. And it's your right to be. I'm not trying to change that. Not a judgement, just an observation.

But what it does mean, is that me trying to explain my perspective, my word choices, and my intentions isn't really going to push either of us into having a deeper conversation about the subject. It's just going to make me have to keep repeating myself in increasingly simpler, gentler, softer, accommodating tones until I'm ultimately just smiling and telling you that it's all ok, I'm ok, you're ok, everyone is ok, and thanking you for having been so kind to have taken the time to talk to me.

And at that point, I might as well put down my phone and cut my balls off too.

Take all that with a sense of humor, because that's the spirit I wrote it in. I'm not angry, I'm not sad, I'm not itching for a fight. I'm making fun of myself more than anything else.

But the conclusion I'm coming to, isn't just that you disagree with my opinion on race and racism. It's that you disagree with me having an opinion on race and racism.

You don't like it that I cringe when I encounter people making sweeping racial generalizations about non white ethnic and racial groups. Even though I'm a member of non white ethnic and racial groups.

You don't like it that I talk about race as if I know what I'm talking about and have some authority on how it affects people. Even though I've been acutely aware of race for the better part of my 25 years on this planet, as both a minority and a minority among minorities, a multiracial man. Who has direct experience with both the fetishizing and the exclusionary racial biases of white people, too.

You don't like that I don't automatically take it on as my responsibility to speak to white people about race as if they are toddlers who are just learning other people have feelings too. Even though I have acted with a lot of patience in explaining myself on here and went out of my way to try to accomadate the feelings of others in my replies.

You don't like it that I suggest our sexual racial biases might also be influenced by our cultures and the images and stereotypes and standards of beauty that we are surrounded by. Even though those things impact all other kinds of stuff in our lives.

You don't seem to like it, that despite us being two very different people with very different experiences and very different perspectives, that I don't share your opinion.

You say I should reread what I've written in this thread. Trust me I have. After some of the replies I got, I reread and reread what I wrote. I was sure I must have slipped up and accidentally written some radical manifesto about white genocide or how screwed you all are going to be once the brown and black people of this world stop demanding equality and start demanding revenge. But no, nothing so scandalous.

I think there's value in examining why you find certain races or ethnic groups particularly attractive or others non attractive.

No one should feel obliged to be attracted to this or that, but thinking about why you hold those biases and where they stem from wouldn't hurt. We all have biases. I don't trust people who claim they don't. And if you find yourself having a racial bias, at least you can be aware of it.

I think if you live in a homogeneous country or are part of the majority, especially the cultural majority, the role of race and racism are easier ignored, brushed aside, or viewed as a non issue.

I asked that people consider the idea that our racial preferences may not be as ingrained as we think, and that they are also influenced by things outside ourselves.

Clearly a tyrannical call for behavior modification and a demand for punishments for those who do not obey.


:|



But I guess that if me saying that it's ok for you to be attracted to whoever you are attracted to, knowing that you dismiss as unattractive, an entire diverse racial group of people with a population of over a billion people.... lol... fuck. If me saying that that's ok, that you personally have my blessing...

If that is what it takes to get you off my ass about this....

then you admitting that you have very little experience and knowledge about race, and thus have a very limited understanding of its scope and influence in both individual interactions and perceptions, as well as on a broader, cultural scale... and that yes, you do hold racial biases, then that's enough to get me off yours.