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Is it racist to have a dating preference?
#51
[MENTION=22914]Cobalt[/MENTION]

I'm really tempted to just call you a racist and leave it at that.
But I figure that joke wouldn't go over so well after all this, and I'm not really known on here for my comedic genius.


To be serious then, thank you for recognizing what it was that I was asking for and thank you for being so honest in your reply, and for posting in a serious thread too. I like serious threads, even if I don't like the opinions shared in them.

I think it says a lot that not only are you so aware of your racial biases, you're also really aware of what you want from a relationship. You seem very self aware. I hope that those awarenesses help you to find what you want in life and help you to recognize when your outward expressions are inappropriate.

You say that you're not a good white person to ask about white people, but since you are a white person, you seem like a good choice to me.

What does it mean to you to be white? How aware are you of your whiteness? Do you feel any sort of racial identity as a white person? How often are you reminded that you are white? What do you associate whiteness with? Are you proud of your race? How does being white effect your life and interactions? What do you think other white people or non white people assume about you when they see you coming down the street? Have you ever come across a non white person who seems to have a racial fetish for white people? How do you feel about the idea of someone having a racial fetish for your whiteness?
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#52
Emiliano Wrote:But what it does mean, is that me trying to explain my perspective, my word choices, and my intentions isn't really going to push either of us into having a deeper conversation about the subject. It's just going to make me have to keep repeating myself in increasingly simpler, gentler, softer, accommodating tones until I'm ultimately just smiling and telling you that it's all ok, I'm ok, you're ok, everyone is ok, and thanking you for having been so kind to have taken the time to talk to me.

This is just demeaning.


Quote:But the conclusion I'm coming to, isn't just that you disagree with my opinion on race and racism. It's that you disagree with me having an opinion on race and racism.

You don't like it that I cringe when I encounter people making sweeping racial generalizations about non white ethnic and racial groups. Even though I'm a member of non white ethnic and racial groups.

You don't like it that I talk about race as if I know what I'm talking about and have some authority on how it affects people. Even though I've been acutely aware of race for the better part of my 25 years on this planet, as both a minority and a minority among minorities, a multiracial man. Who has direct experience with both the fetishizing and the exclusionary racial biases of white people, too.

You don't like that I don't automatically take it on as my responsibility to speak to white people about race as if they are toddlers who are just learning other people have feelings too. Even though I have acted with a lot of patience in explaining myself on here and went out of my way to try to accomadate the feelings of others in my replies.

You don't like it that I suggest our sexual racial biases might also be influenced by our cultures and the images and stereotypes and standards of beauty that we are surrounded by. Even though those things impact all other kinds of stuff in our lives.

You don't seem to like it, that despite us being two very different people with very different experiences and very different perspectives, that I don't share your opinion.


That's not it at all. I never said, implied, or thought anything of the kind. You haven't understood a single word I've written in my previous posts.


Whatever.
''Do I look civilized to you?''
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#53
Race threads never end well.
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#54
meridannight Wrote:That's not it at all. I never said, implied, or thought anything of the kind. You haven't understood a single word I've written in my previous posts.

Yeah that's what I've been saying to you in our last several interactions on here too. But it's ok, we don't have to understand eachother. Just as long as we both understand that.

We do have some common interests though, topics on which I very much do value your insight on. And at the very least, I hope you're still willing to talk about those things with me.
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#55
Emiliano Wrote:What does it mean to you to be white? How aware are you of your whiteness? Do you feel any sort of racial identity as a white person? How often are you reminded that you are white? What do you associate whiteness with? Are you proud of your race? How does being white effect your life and interactions? What do you think other white people or non white people assume about you when they see you coming down the street? Have you ever come across a non white person who seems to have a racial fetish for white people? How do you feel about the idea of someone having a racial fetish for your whiteness?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I thought you might be interested.

I didn't think about my whiteness for a long time because it didn't matter. I did not come from a racial group that had to band together at times in relative solidarity, nor did I have to think "How do my actions make all white people look?" Racially speaking, the system was tailored made for me (and though there are people who hate whites, they typically have little power with the system or hindered me in the job market, and also a lot less tolerance for their racist BS than white people get for ours), and it didn't even occur to me that it was different for other racial groups.

I did notice some things. For example, in all white classes the teachers tended to act different and teach it differently (an extreme example is a teacher, white of course, who would try to get us to use proper English by "talking black" and asking if we wanted to sound like that). Even when classes were racially mixed it became more passive aggressive, like how Black History Month was subverted to damn with faint praise (and turned out to have lies of omission) in a way that if anyone complained then they could play innocent (and that still goes on in at least a few schools today), and though I was aware that slavery was worse than it was presented (and even challenged the views presented) I was still more angry at Yankee carpetbaggers than slavery (and was given a false impression of the Civil War as well)...and it wasn't until I read My Bondage and My Freedom by Frederick Douglass that I realized just how much I'd been lied to (not only by omission, but straight up lied to).

When I was 13, I met another girl my age, an outcast, who was born Vietnamese but was raised by white parents. It startled me how she had a Texas accent, and really was white (culturally speaking) in all ways, but an outcast because of her body (though we outcasts stuck together in that small Bible Belt town). People of the town condemned the white parents who adopted her (I would guess from a refugee "boat people" who experienced terrible conditions in refugee camps, down to living in cages like animals at the pound, and extremely impoverished with it all too easy for parents to die, so adopting an infant and rescuing her from that should be praiseworthy rather than condemned), and the reason for that is because the girl would not belong to any culture. IOW, the people in town were such assholes and the merciful white parents should've known what assholes they'd be and therefore left the girl in Asia, and this is all the adoptive parents fault rather than the townsfolk. Rolleyes

As a runaway on the streets later, I was given the advice that if the cops down on us, run from anyone black because they're first (and then Hispanic, etc). And that worked (though just barely, backup did come and perhaps the only reason I got away was because I quickly ducked into a convenience store, bought a single candy bar and asked for a large sack, and then walked away from where the cops were rounding us up with my face covered and acting as if I was carrying a heavy bag of groceries, but I only got that slight break that allowed that because I ran from the black guy with us and the was the first priority of the cops). Heck, some of our scams involved racial assumptions (we usually had to use punks or some such, but a black guy acting stereotypical black while making a scene was the best distraction, though it certainly didn't help racial matters--but we were kids on the streets so we did what we had to do to survive).

It angers me to remember the cop who stopped to harass the black guy who was with me as he was obviously angry that a black guy was with a blonde girl, and accused him of horrible things, though I'm sure it was just as well I didn't ask him why that same cop didn't go after the black guy who everyone knew was pimping (and had sent his own people out to kidnap me), though of course that pimp had connections and paid bribes (including sex favors of enslaved girls) to cops. And that black guy who was with me did more to protect me from that pimp than the entire police force did.

That reminds me. I was sexually assaulted when I was 13, though I did successfully defend myself and get away before it got too bad (though I was punished horrendously for it, but at least I wasn't actually raped). It's amazing how many can show sympathy and all but then get especially disturbed when they find out the guy who assaulted me then was black (one even demanding to know why I didn't tell him and it was honestly because it didn't occur to me, this was a mental ward in which other orderlies of multiple races went to help him while one punched me in the gut and took to a corrective area where a white woman began brainwashing me to blame myself in order to protect the hospital in which I was attacked so to me it was just all the adults, not just a black man). I get this impression that I'm obligated to make white babies, which disturbs me, especially as sometimes there's a tone that maybe I should be forced to.

And I have been told outright I needed to make babies for various demographics that sounded rather callous (and protective of any hypothetical children of mine being exploited by them), and even heard a right wing radio talk show host saying women should be encouraged to have babies because the nation needs more soldiers and taxpayers (IOW, like a cattle rancher).

Anyway, I knew that white was generally a privileged status (though I had other marks against me, but I caught a big break on race) but I didn't realize how bad it was. Generally speaking, white people don't think someone is racist as long as they're not being violent or terrorizing people. I have a relative who would never see a black doctor and thought a black person as POTUS would be disastrous, but thought burning crosses or dragging someone to death behind a vehicle over race was disgusting and was genuinely nice and accepting of black people in more modest positions (and having no power or authority over her). So in her own eyes she wasn't racist at all. But of course they needed to know their place (just as women did, etc) and not stray from that. (She was also one of those who blamed the white parents who had adopted a Vietnamese baby for the way she and others shunned the girl.)

My favorite restaurant around there was secretly owned by a black guy who pretended to be the cook and hired white people who pretended to run it, because it was acceptable to have him as the cook, but not the owner, and I recall reading of advice given that essentially said it was the same way even in Silicon Valley for black people who wanted to start their own business. But this is more informal rather than systematic, and as that generally doesn't affect white people, its reaching effects just aren't seen. It's not right and I never said it was, but I also never thought of it because it did not impact me, and therefore underestimated the pressures of being of a minority race in the USA. (This, of course, just being one of many ways POC are held back.)

But then I became close to a group in which I was the only white person among them. I picked up a lot, and I even noticed things that they didn't, such as how different many white people acted when I was by myself and when one of them was with me. I saw how much they endured, but in a more "death by a thousand paper cuts" way rather than being stomped outright. They were also pressured not be sound angry or bitter about it because that would only make it worse. Even then it took years before it really sank in.

Even years later when it did I'd still learn more stuff. Like back when Kanye West took the microphone from Taylor Swift and was being a jerk, I commented to my friend with me (who is black) that it's good to see chivalry is alive as the view was of the audience where women (white) were seeming to enjoy this but I saw a black man who looked horrified. And she told me that it was much more likely he was worried about Kanye West promoting a very negative image about black men that now all who are black would have to endure with him (and unlike Kanye they're not rich) than he was disturbed that a pretty woman got treated like that by a rude man.

And after that I paid attention to see it was true enough, unlike white people the actions of races (especially if they were negative) effected everyone else of their race, and was so ridiculous that when one mass shooter turned out to be black that the comments was that this was normal never mind that the vast majority of mass shooters are white (and white mass shooters were dismissed as an anomaly while a black mass shooter was seen as "typical" though such is not). That is, a white person does something bad and its on the individual that did it. Someone of a minority race does something bad and its on the entire race.

When I volunteered to help the homeless and those very close to being that way, we helped a lot of white people as well as of every other race, and yet it's supposed to be normal for those not white (and maybe not a "model minority"), when it wasn't--and that's despite the extra hurdles they have. Of course when one does overcome all the hurdles, it supposed to be seen as proof that everyone can make it "just as easily" as all those extra hurdles are invisible to most white people, and had been to me until I was in my mid-20s (though I'd seen them in effect before I just assumed without thinking that such was the exception and not the rule, and dismissed common racism as "there are jerks everywhere" and "everyone gets treated unfairly for stupid reasons at some point" which is true enough, but overlooking a lot).

I'm tempted to go on about what I've noticed of people complaining of "quotas" and such, but I'm getting really tired of typing. So let me add that I know there's racism against white people in the USA as well, but that it's not actually systematic (and when I lived in a minority neighborhood, I found it much easier than them to leave it in so many ways, and have) and that there's a lot of racism against each other. An ex-girlfriend of mine comes from a family furious about being called Asian American because they don't want to be put in the same group as the Japanese, for example, and my own previously mentioned friend who is black is sometimes called an "oreo" (that is "white on the inside") by her own family. Having been around some vicious black criminals (and lost my best friend to the same pimp that tried adding me to his stable as well) I despise most gangsta rap and those who think it's cool to be a black thug (but then plenty of black people also hate that), not that I'm accepting of thugs of any other race (nor do I assume someone is a thug for being black).

And just so you're not surprised, I can argue people who talk about "microaggression" and make a mountain out of molehills, IMO, though I also tend to give more of a benefit of a doubt than I used to and am willing to listen...but there had better be a good reason for it. My upbringing was such that I don't see being a victim as the same as being virtuous, and I see little point in whining over small crap (though I know the small crap can really build up), and sometimes I think people are being downright counterproductive in their attempts to correct the injustices of society.

That said, I want to finish off by saying that I like how calm you've remained and how much effort you've put into being clear. I get the impression it took a lot of effort and consideration, and it's praiseworthy, IMO.

I may add more later (feel free to ask me questions), but I'm utterly exhausted right now from typing.
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#56
Emiliano Wrote:I'm curious what example you might be thinking of too.

Should I bother at this point? It was one of the ones you mentioned.
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#57
[MENTION=21558]Emiliano[/MENTION] you know, if anything, I may not agree with everything you said, but I will say I did learn a little from your input. So I do think it is worth looking into my preferences and why I have them. So thank you.
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#58
I also want to say this, I think TV and stereotypes play a big role in how we view the world and gives us a since of who we and other people are (but not a person to person basis, more of a collective basis). Just something to think about.
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#59
Remind me not to play Cards Against Humanity with you guys.

[Image: mg_desktop-d6fe8468.jpg]
Use a condom.
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#60
To try and answer your questions one at a time...


What does it mean to you to be white? That I'm superior.
Kidding.
For real, I never really thought much about it. I thought of other people as colored/different/whatever you want to term it. I guess I saw white as normal, and everything else as different. Not bad exactly just, different.

How aware are you of your whiteness? More so now than before. Where I was in Massachusetts there were lots of whites. Some Portuguese/Spanish people but they all mostly looked white. Now here in Texas, there's Blacks, Mexicans...it reminds me that I'm white. Not that it's bad there's other people besides whites here, it just makes me think more about race.

Do you feel any sort of racial identity as a white person? I guess so? I don't know exactly. I know I identify as a white person because I am one but, I don't really regard my interests or habits as being influenced by my color. There's things whites are associated with that I don't like and there's things I do.

How often are you reminded that you are white? I don't notice I get treated any different for being white. Probably if I lived as black or a mexican for a year I would notice things that didn't happen when I was white. I've only been pulled over once in my life, and it was because I was speeding through a school zone. I had no idea it was a school zone and my speed was what would have been normal had it not been school hours. Regardless, the stop was justified. Looking back, would I have been pulled over more frequently in my life if I was not white? I don't know.

What do you associate whiteness with? Mayonnaise and Country Music. Both of which I hate. But honestly, I guess I associate it with "normal", at least, what I'm used to. If I visited a country where mostly everyone was black, or Mexican, or Middle Eastern, or what have you, I guess I'd be nervous. I would feel like I don't fit in and/or like I'm always in some sense of danger. So, maybe I associate whiteness with feeling safe.

Are you proud of your race? I guess so, some parts of it. Others not so much. I try to identify myself as a person more so than just resting on my color to speak for me.

How does being white effect your life and interactions? I'm not really sure what it's done for my life much. I guess it's made things easier because I've lived in white communities. If I hadn't been white then I imagine my life probably would have been different in terms of dealing with people. I guess when I interact with non-whites I'm more semi nervous than with whites. I wonder if they already assume things about me because of my color or start off disliking/distrusting me because of what I am.

What do you think other white people or non white people assume about you when they see you coming down the street? Both, at least in this part of the country, probably assume I voted Trump and love my guns. Neither of which are true. I don't "look" or "act" gay, so I think people, around here, assume I live my life by the bible and don't believe in gay rights, or like minorities much.

Have you ever come across a non white person who seems to have a racial fetish for white people? I don't know if I have. One time on a gay dating app an older black man tried hitting on me. Obviously he had a thing for white guys, otherwise he wouldn't have talked to me. I don't know if he just liked whites or had an exclusive kink for them though. It did make me uncomfortable, if we're being honest, to be hit on by a non-white.

How do you feel about the idea of someone having a racial fetish for your whiteness? A little weirded out. If someone was attracted to me just because I was white, and only because I was white, that would make me feel uncomfortable I suppose. If a white guy wanted to date me for a few reasons, and also because I was white and he only dates whites, then I'm okay with that.

As for me being self aware, I would say I very much am. I found the relationship, and life, that I wanted by knowing what I want and just going after it and trusting my gut feelings.
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